lost. toffical season 4 thread

[Jovi]

Originally Posted by Ozymandias

1) "Locke'd"? No, not what I meant at all.

2) It has to be understood that, at some point, the whole "plane at the bottom of the ocean" story is exposed as BS. This really isn't negotiable. You cannot have THE OCEANIC 6 and ALL PASSENGERS ARE DEAD AND ON THE BOTTOM OF THE OCEAN. I think the arrival of the 6 back to society will coincide with the "plane at the bottom of the ocean" story being called BS.

3) Aaron has to be presented as someone else's baby. Kate's lawyer wanted to bring him as a witness to her trial. The only reason he would do that is to talk about her character. It really helps her character that she chose to raise someone else's kid after a plane crash.

4) I don't see the 6th person being the person in the casket. The Oceanic 6 have become celebrities (Jack being called a hero in the Season 3 finale, Kate apparently having one of the most recognizable faces in the world, Sun being referred to as one of the Oceanic 6 in the hospital, Hurley shouting it out when he is being arrested, the guy on the golf course claiming he recognized Sayid from somewhere) and that funeral is NOT the funeral of a celebrity. There would have been some sort of turnout, guaranteed.

2) I don't think the staged plane gets exposed until the end of the show or ever. I'm not sure they've claimed to have recovered every body from in the staged wreckage. That would probably be a first in the history of ocean airline crashes if that was the case, as I would presume when a plane crashes in the ocean, bodies go missing (especially if the wreckage is found much later).

I think the Oceanic 6's story will be that they managed to find their way to some known deserted island after the crash and two of them died there (presumably Claire being one). Then they were somehow "found".

3) I agree.

4) I agree.

[DantonIzzo]

I'm still not 100% convinced that Ben winds up being the "bad guy" compared to Penny's father.

[Jovi]

Originally Posted by DantonIzzo

I'm still not 100% convinced that Ben winds up being the "bad guy" compared to Penny's father.

Hell, with the twists in this show, I'm not convinced they're not on the same team, either good or bad.

[DantonIzzo]

Originally Posted by Jovi

Hell, with the twists in this show, I'm not convinced they're not on the same team, either good or bad.

True.

I've learned to not rule out anything.

[JDR]

Does everyone agree that Jacob in the shack was the original captain of the Black Rock ship? I believe that he is the source of the black smoke.

I think that Richard was also on the ship along with the original others that meet Ben in the jungle when he's a young man. It would appear that none of the surviving Black Rock crew has aged apparently and have tapped into the island's 'power'.

Possibly, that everyone on the island with adult Ben prior to the crash of 815 has been brought to the island by the island itself for some reason we yet do not know? or brought by Ben for reasons told to him by Jacob/the island. I would guess to further Ben's goal of protecting the island.

Ultimately, I think Dharma and Widmore are trying to control the island for their own purposes and Ben has adopted the original Others position that the island must remain 'lost' to the rest of the known world so that it is not exploited. So I think Ben is a 'good guy' who is trying to protect the island by any means necessary.

I have read an alternate theory where Ben is harnessing the island's time/space travel powers and Juliet's scientific/pregnancy knowledge to go back in time to save his own mother who died giving birth to him. That being the root cause of his misery and flashbacks, it seems possibly quite logical. It would then change the timeline for everyone that he sacrificed or killed and exonerate him of those deeds. Interesting theory.

[DantonIzzo]

Originally Posted by JDR

I have read an alternate theory where Ben is harnessing the island's time/space travel powers and Juliet's scientific/pregnancy knowledge to go back in time to save his own mother who died giving birth to him. That being the root cause of his misery and flashbacks, it seems possibly quite logical. It would then change the timeline for everyone that he sacrificed or killed and exonerate him of those deeds. Interesting theory.

That is interesting.

[Ozymandias]

Originally Posted by Jovi

2) I don't think the staged plane gets exposed until the end of the show or ever. I'm not sure they've claimed to have recovered every body from in the staged wreckage. That would probably be a first in the history of ocean airline crashes if that was the case, as I would presume when a plane crashes in the ocean, bodies go missing (especially if the wreckage is found much later).

I think the Oceanic 6's story will be that they managed to find their way to some known deserted island after the crash and two of them died there (presumably Claire being one). Then they were somehow "found".

3) I agree.

4) I agree.

The story the public knows now is that the entire plane is at the bottom of the ocean. Everyone knows that because there was footage of the whole thing shown on TV all across the world. So how does someone explain the existence of The Oceanic 6 AND the entire freaking plane being at the bottom of the ocean?

[MiamiSpartan]

Originally Posted by RonBurgundy

I assumed those took him on the same coordinates that the helicopter had to go on so as not to end up like mitcoski-whatever the crazy guys name was-

like some portal to get through the effects of the island.

The helicopter was not given coordinates, it was given a heading. The helicopter and Michael's boat left from different parts of the island, so they would be on a slightly different heading even if traveling to the same spot.

They would not want to use a GPS to find the coordinates of the boat or the island.

[MiamiSpartan]

Originally Posted by Ozymandias

If both of them made it back, then there would be the Oceanic 7.

LOCKED IN STONE MEMBERS OF THE GROUP: Jack, Kate, Hurley, Sayid, Sun
ASSUMED MEMBER: Aaron

Originally Posted by FightingWhite

You mean "Locke"d in stone? I don't think Aaron would count. That doesn't make sense if the public has been led to believe the plane was found at the bottom of the ocean, yet 6 survived. And if Aaron is being presented as Kate's son, it would only make sense for him to have been born after the rescue (as far as the public would be concerned). The 6th Oceanic survivor is the person in the casket. It's not Jin. It's gotta be Locke. It's not Ben. He's still ruling the world with Sayid's help and he wasn't on the plane.

Aaron IS one of the Oceanic Six. I don't think it's assumed. It's locked in stone. Heading into the Kate Trial episode, the previews said, "Another one of the Oceanic Six will be revealed." Aaron was the only "new" person in that episode. Ozy, do you think they'd say that and not follow through? Furthermore, if the producers said that after last night, it would be known who the Six are. Clearly Aaron is one of the six.

It makes sense. You board a plane when you're 8 months pregnant, that plane crashes, you survive, and give birth to that baby before being rescued, that baby will be considered just as much of a crash survivor as anyone else.

[Jovi]

Originally Posted by Ozymandias

The story the public knows now is that the entire plane is at the bottom of the ocean. Everyone knows that because there was footage of the whole thing shown on TV all across the world. So how does someone explain the existence of The Oceanic 6 AND the entire freaking plane being at the bottom of the ocean?

How do you explain Tom Hanks making it to shore in "Cast Away"? Wasn't he presumed dead?

[MiamiSpartan]

Originally Posted by Ozymandias

The story the public knows now is that the entire plane is at the bottom of the ocean. Everyone knows that because there was footage of the whole thing shown on TV all across the world. So how does someone explain the existence of The Oceanic 6 AND the entire freaking plane being at the bottom of the ocean?

They said that they found the bodies. Did they say that they pulled all the bodies out? Were all bodies taken back and given a funeral? Couldn't it easily be explained that they miscounted by 8 people? The plane crashes, and some people survive, get out, and eventually drift to a deserted island ala Tom Hanks. I don't think it would be a stretch if it just came out and said that they miscounted. IF you are to assume that the wreckage is exposed as a fake upon the Oceanic Six's return, then wouldn't there be questions about other survivors?

[Touchdown MSU]

Originally Posted by MiamiSpartan

They said that they found the bodies. Did they say that they pulled all the bodies out? Were all bodies taken back and given a funeral? Couldn't it easily be explained that they miscounted by 8 people? The plane crashes, and some people survive, get out, and eventually drift to a deserted island ala Tom Hanks. I don't think it would be a stretch if it just came out and said that they miscounted. IF you are to assume that the wreckage is exposed as a fake upon the Oceanic Six's return, then wouldn't there be questions about other survivors?

agree

it's likely they recovered many bodies and the rest are presumed dead or missing in the ocean to never be recovered. A few months later 6 survivors are found on an island in the Pacific. A true miracle that they survuved the crash, swam to an island, and were rescued. Claire was a survivor but died after giving birth, and another person died on the island. Didnt Jack say there were 8 originally? seems plausible to me

[MiamiSpartan]

After responding to a few posts, here are a few of my thoughts from the episode.

- Jin is alive on the island, but Sun is going along with everyone else that everyone back on the island is dead. The tombstone was made AFTER Sun's return. It can not be the tombstone that was created when they were assumed dead, because Sun's birthday was also on the tombstone, with no date of death.

- I could live with the idea that Ben faked the plane wreckage. He is a major player off the island, as well. I'm not sure why Widmore or anyone else would fake it. If the black box was really from the fake wreckage, it would be very interesting to know what is on that. Does Widmore have the black box because he faked the crash, or did he have suspicions (since he knew about he island) and that's how he used his considerable influence to get his hands on the black box from the fake wreckage, which then would have confirmed his suspicions?

- I'm really wondering why Hurley said, "Gooood" when Sun said that no one else was coming. Doesn't seem like him to try to move in on her.

- Are we under the assumption that Desmond is still 1996 Desmond in his mind? They didn't really address that one way or another. If so (and we have no reason to believe that 2004 Desmond is back) he ultimately knows nothing about the island, and doesn't know that Widmore basically sent him there, so the fact that it is Widmore's boat is a coincidence to him, but he probably doesn't realize the evil behind it.

- A little mistake by the writers. Sun goes to the hospital with severe pains (not contractions). The doctor says the baby is in distress (which fits with the pain). But then she delivers the baby v-a-g-i-n-a-lly? Uh, unless you want to virtually assure an unhealthy child (at best, as dead child would be very possible), you're doing a C-section in that case. But if they wrote a c-section into it, that wouldn't make sense for her to be crying out for Jin during her labor. No big deal in the context of the show, but definitely a mistake.

(edited for the filter. I hope that doesn't get me an infraction for bypassing the language filter, as I was using the common medical term for giving birth through that particular area).

[Jovi]

Originally Posted by MiamiSpartan

- A little mistake by the writers. Sun goes to the hospital with severe pains (not contractions). The doctor says the baby is in distress (which fits with the pain). But then she delivers the baby v-a-g-i-n-a-lly? Uh, unless you want to virtually assure an unhealthy child (at best, as dead child would be very possible), you're doing a C-section in that case. But if they wrote a c-section into it, that wouldn't make sense for her to be crying out for Jin during her labor. No big deal in the context of the show, but definitely a mistake.

I always thought a big mistake was when Jack never attended to Naomi after Locke knifed her.

[Enrico Palazzo]

Originally Posted by MiamiSpartan

After responding to a few posts, here are a few of my thoughts from the episode.

- Jin is alive on the island, but Sun is going along with everyone else that everyone back on the island is dead. The tombstone was made AFTER Sun's return. It can not be the tombstone that was created when they were assumed dead, because Sun's birthday was also on the tombstone, with no date of death.

- I could live with the idea that Ben faked the plane wreckage. He is a major player off the island, as well. I'm not sure why Widmore or anyone else would fake it. If the black box was really from the fake wreckage, it would be very interesting to know what is on that. Does Widmore have the black box because he faked the crash, or did he have suspicions (since he knew about he island) and that's how he used his considerable influence to get his hands on the black box from the fake wreckage, which then would have confirmed his suspicions?

- I'm really wondering why Hurley said, "Gooood" when Sun said that no one else was coming. Doesn't seem like him to try to move in on her.

- Are we under the assumption that Desmond is still 1996 Desmond in his mind? They didn't really address that one way or another. If so (and we have no reason to believe that 2004 Desmond is back) he ultimately knows nothing about the island, and doesn't know that Widmore basically sent him there, so the fact that it is Widmore's boat is a coincidence to him, but he probably doesn't realize the evil behind it.

- A little mistake by the writers. Sun goes to the hospital with severe pains (not contractions). The doctor says the baby is in distress (which fits with the pain). But then she delivers the baby v-a-g-i-n-a-lly? Uh, unless you want to virtually assure an unhealthy child (at best, as dead child would be very possible), you're doing a C-section in that case. But if they wrote a c-section into it, that wouldn't make sense for her to be crying out for Jin during her labor. No big deal in the context of the show, but definitely a mistake.

(edited for the filter. I hope that doesn't get me an infraction for bypassing the language filter, as I was using the common medical term for giving birth through that particular area).

the doctor said they needed to do a C-section but Sun said no. Thus, I would assume they induced. She's not only a celebrity but the daughter of a very powerful person in Korea, I think they'd heed her wishes.

[znerd]

Originally Posted by JDR

Possibly, that everyone on the island with adult Ben prior to the crash of 815 has been brought to the island by the island itself for some reason we yet do not know? or brought by Ben for reasons told to him by Jacob/the island. I would guess to further Ben's goal of protecting the island.

Ultimately, I think Dharma and Widmore are trying to control the island for their own purposes and Ben has adopted the original Others position that the island must remain 'lost' to the rest of the known world so that it is not exploited. So I think Ben is a 'good guy' who is trying to protect the island by any means necessary.

I have read an alternate theory where Ben is harnessing the island's time/space travel powers and Juliet's scientific/pregnancy knowledge to go back in time to save his own mother who died giving birth to him. That being the root cause of his misery and flashbacks, it seems possibly quite logical. It would then change the timeline for everyone that he sacrificed or killed and exonerate him of those deeds. Interesting theory.

I really think Ben will end up being one of the "good" guys in the end of this. They have spent an obscene amount of time developing his character as manipulative and just plain evil. I think the writers are setting this up in a huge climax.

I don't feel that he is teaming up wtih Dharma or Widmore and certainly don't subscribe to the theory that he is trying to travel back in time to save his mom at childbirth. Anything is possible, and I have nothing to back that up with, but it seems a little farfetched to me.

[MiamiSpartan]

Originally Posted by Enrico Palazzo

the doctor said they needed to do a C-section but Sun said no. Thus, I would assume they induced. She's not only a celebrity but the daughter of a very powerful person in Korea, I think they'd heed her wishes.

I don't remember the doctor saying that, but I'll believe you. If so, Sun is a freaking moron that doesn't care about her baby. Regardless of how powerful her father is or how famous she is, it is always the patient's choice unless the patient is unable to make the choice.

After all she'd been through, realistically, would anyone take that kind of risk with their baby? That doesn't fit her personality in the least, especially not after she stayed on the beach against everything that her gut was telling her, in order to save her baby.

If the doctor suggested a c-section, and Sun said no, then that is even worse writing than I thought. Again, it doesn't really impact the show, however.

[DantonIzzo]

Originally Posted by znerd

I really think Ben will end up being one of the "good" guys in the end of this. They have spent an obscene amount of time developing his character as manipulative and just plain evil. I think the writers are setting this up in a huge climax.

I don't feel that he is teaming up wtih Dharma or Widmore and certainly don't subscribe to the theory that he is trying to travel back in time to save his mom at childbirth. Anything is possible, and I have nothing to back that up with, but it seems a little farfetched to me.

Agreed.