Woody Hayes as MSU's Coach?

[IGGcitable]

Originally Posted by ElmhurstSpartan

Not sure where you guys were in the mid 70's...Wharton probably made a mistake..but it wasn't how you have it..he testified before congress that the NCAA was out of line and did not follow due process..He fought the sanctions and as a result the sanctions were toughter than they would have been if we had imposed our own or at least taken what the NCAA wanted to hand out..

He fought the sanctions, yes, by dragging MSUs' feet and being somewhat less-than-enthusiastic in the "investigation" process, in which the NCAA essentially demands you dig up evidence to prove yourself guilty, when what he SHOULD have done to fight the sanctions was wheel out the legal nuclear weapons and hit the NCAA with a full-frontal assault and a massive multi-hundred-million-dollar lawsuit attacking their investigation and enforcement procedures and challenging their authority to assess damaging penalties on athletes in total disregard of their constitutional rights.

Such a lawsuit would have left the NCAA in ashes, but Wharton didn't have the guts to try it. When push came to shove, he bent over (and bent MSU over, too).

[ATL SPARTAN]

Originally Posted by MrSpartan

I never knew Barry Switzer was considered to be MSU's coach.

Barry Switzer was a Spartan assistant under Duffy. From what I've read the powers to be thougth Barry a loose cannon regarding recruiting and potential for violations. Instead Denny Stolz gets us 3 years with no TV or bowls.

This also cost us a Rose Bowl trip in 1978.

[IGGcitable]

Originally Posted by ATL SPARTAN

Barry Switzer was a Spartan assistant under Duffy. From what I've read the powers to be thougth Barry a loose cannon regarding recruiting and potential for violations. Instead Denny Stolz gets us 3 years with no TV or bowls.

This also cost us a Rose Bowl trip in 1978.

Switzer was never on Duffy's staff (or Biggie's, either). Stolz did nothing worse than what every single other major NCAA school (most definitely including Ohio State, and UM and ND) did routinely all the time in those days (most of which would be absolute chicken feed today).

If the NCAA blew us out of the water as bad as they did with Stolz, just think what they would have done with Switzer. We'd have been given the death penalty for 10 years.

To be accurate also, the lost Rose Bowl trip of 1978 was mostly accomplished using Stolz-recruited players (although who knows if Ed Smith would have ever gotten a chance to play QB -- at the time Stolz preferred running option QBs).

[rob]

Originally Posted by IGGcitable

About as much as we considered hiring Ayatollah Khomeini.

Woody Hayes, more than any single individual, is responsible for the f$#$#ked-up condition of MSU football, even to this day.

No, MSU was resonsiblbe for the condition of MSU football

[IGGcitable]

Originally Posted by IGGcitable
About as much as we considered hiring Ayatollah Khomeini.

Woody Hayes, more than any single individual, is responsible for the f$#$#ked-up condition of MSU football, even to this day.

Originally Posted by rob

No, MSU was resonsiblbe for the condition of MSU football

Reading comprehension, never big around here.

Wharton was responsible for some of our problems. DiBiaggio was responsible for some of our problems. M. Cecil Mackey was responsible for some of our problems. Joe Kearney was responsible for some of our problems. Doug Weaver was responsible for some of our problems. Merrily Dean Baker was responsible for some of our problems. Merritt Norvell was responsible for some of our problems. Ron Mason was responsible for some of our problems. Perle$$$ was responsible for some of our problems. $$$$aban was responsible for some of our problems. Joel Fergu$$$$$on was responsible for some of our problems. Muddy, BW and JLS were responsible for some of our problems. 1000 players to varying degree were responsible for some of our problems.

But Woody Hayes, to this day, is still more responsible than any single individual. He set off the chain reaction and we are still dealing with the ripple effects.

[Babies Need Tickets]

Rockne, Switzer, Osborne, Hayes, Spurrier, etc., etc., etc.

[MSUtopia]

If-dog-rabbit!! A lot of useless fingerpointing going on here. The fall from football greatness at MSU was largely due to desegregation of Southern football programs and the inability of MSU to adjust recruiting channels. UM football was pretty mediocre for much of the 60's but the hiring of Bo came at just the wrong time for MSU coinciding with the disruption of our Southern recruiting pipeline. The symbolic game was the first game of 1967 after the legendary 1966 season. We were shockingly upset by the University of Houston. Houston's first African-American player in history was a little scat back named Warren McVea playing in his first game. He ran all over us and thus began the struggles of MSU football.

[26.2]

Originally Posted by IGGcitable

Woody Hayes ---------------------------> Catastrophic NCAA Probation

Catastrophic NCAA Probation ---------------------> Firing of Denny Stolz

Firing of Denny Stolz ----------------> Firing of AD Burt Smith

Firing of Burt Smith ----------------------> Hiring AD of Joe Kearney

Hiring of Joe Kearney -----------------> Hiring of Daryl Rogers

Hiring of Joe Kearney -------------------> Eventual resignation of Kearney

Resignation of Kearney --------------> Daryl Rogers abruptly goes to Arizona State

Daryl Rogers abruptly goes to Arizona State -------------> MSU offers job to Perle$$$$$$

MSU offers job to Perle$$$$$ ------------------> Perle$$$$ abruptly bails out and decides not to take job

Perle$$$$ abruptly bails out and decides not to take job---------------> Muddy Waters is hired as a last-minute panic choice

Muddy Waters is hired as a last-minute panic choice-------------> Perle$$$$ disciples sabotage and sandbag Waters his entire tenure at MSU ----------> Waters fails disastrously

Waters fails disastrously--------------------------> Perle$$$$ is hired at MSU

Perle$$$$ is hired at MSU -------------------> Perles is basically mediocre until finally winning the Rose Bowl in Year 5, is mediocre again in Year 6, has decent seasons in Year 7 and 8, extorts the AD job and a new contract, and basically decides to coast

Perle$$$ basically decides to coast --------------> Perle$$$ fails disastrously

Perle$$$ fails disastrously ------------------>$$$$$aban is brought in

$$$$$$aban is brought in ------------------> $$$$$aban is basically mediocre until having a good season in Year 5, upon which he immediately bolts for LSU.

$$$$$$$$$$$aban bolts for LSU ----------------> Bobby Williams is made coach

Bobby Williams is made coach --------------> Bobby Williams fails disastrously

Bobby Williams fails disastrously -------------> Bobby Williams is fired

Bobby Williams is fired ------------------> Perle$$$/$$$aban devotees demand a Perle$$$/$$aban devotee as head coach but instead Ron Mason hires John L. Smith.

Ron Mason hires John L. Smith --------> Perle$$$/$$$aban devotees sabotage and sandbag Smith every day of his entire tenure ----------------> John L. Smith fails disastrously.

John L. Smith fails disastrously -----------------------> Dantonio is hired, and basically has to start over from Ground Zero.

MSU's program is in just about exactly the same shape it was in, in 1976, when Woody Hayes pretty much single-handedly railroaded MSU into one of the most severe probations in NCAA history. A lot of $#$# has happened since then, and a lot of people had their fingers in the stew, but the whole goddamn chain reaction was kicked off by Woody Hayes.

There were so many times when we were so close to coming out of the shadows only to something unforeseen drag us back in had Rogers have stayed - who knows, had Perles kept his focus and wanted to be here after he got his team to the Rose Bowl, insert top ten for Rose Bowl and ditto for Saban, Smoker - enough said, had JLS used Stanton correctly (no kick return coverage team, no trying to take on Woodley, hand the ball to your hot RB instead of throwing against ND, field a proper # of players on a FG try before the half ).

When was Woody hired in at OSU, when did Duffy call it quits? Pretty sure Woody was well in place by then and even Bo might have been turning U-M around by then.

[Lochgelly]

Originally Posted by MrSpartan

I was just reading Woody Hayes' biography on Wikipedia because I wanted to find out more about "The Punch" and I wondered what if instead of hiring Muddy Waters in 1980 would the MSU athletic department have considered hiring Woody Hayes and giving him a second chance? I wasn't alive back then but I wonder if that could have changed MSU's football fortunes going into the 1980s and avoided Perles eventually becoming head coach? Was it even a possibility? I see it as it would have gave Hayes the chance to go up against Bo and scUM for a few more years and repair his image. I know Hayes hated scUM but was it just the Wolverines he hated or anything from Michigan?

I'm comin' over and I'm going to punch you right in the face...

Woody Hayes...as an MSU Coach...geesh...

Now go wash your mouth out with soap...

Why would you even think such evil thoughts...I know evil lurks deep within the hearts of man...but why wwould you expose the rest of us to your depraved sick mind.

[va slim]

I don't see how the chain reaction could go past Perles.

Perles got MSU a Rose Bowl, the chain reaction ends there.

It started up again after MSU lost to CMU, Perles overstayed his welcome, and got a recruiting violation in '94.

Saban had MSU going in the right direction, but left for LSU.

I think the will stop it once and for all

[MrSpartan]

Originally Posted by Lochgelly

I'm comin' over and I'm going to punch you right in the face...

Woody Hayes...as an MSU Coach...geesh...

Now go wash your mouth out with soap...

Why would you even think such evil thoughts...I know evil lurks deep within the hearts of man...but why wwould you expose the rest of us to your depraved sick mind.

I guess you did not read what I said.

Originally Posted by MrSpartan

I was just reading Woody Hayes' biography on Wikipedia because I wanted to find out more about "The Punch" and I wondered what if instead of hiring Muddy Waters in 1980 would the MSU athletic department have considered hiring Woody Hayes and giving him a second chance? I wasn't alive back then but I wonder if that could have changed MSU's football fortunes going into the 1980s and avoided Perles eventually becoming head coach? Was it even a possibility? I see it as it would have gave Hayes the chance to go up against Bo and scUM for a few more years and repair his image. I know Hayes hated scUM but was it just the Wolverines he hated or anything from Michigan?

I just asked a simple question. How is somebody who wasn't alive back then supposed to know Woody Hayes' history with MSU? I was just asking Spartans fans who were alive and remember that period if it was possible. They answered my question and I thank those who answered it seriously. I don't think your little "joke" (which I hope it was) about my evil mind was warranted or necessary.

[Lochgelly]

Originally Posted by MrSpartan

I guess you did not read what I said.



I just asked a simple question. How is somebody who wasn't alive back then supposed to know Woody Hayes' history with MSU? I was just asking Spartans fans who were alive and remember that period if it was possible. They answered my question and I thank those who answered it seriously. I don't think your little "joke" (which I hope it was) about my evil mind was warranted or necessary.

I'm sorry if I upset you...it was just a crass joke..

still Woody? COME ON...

We hate him...what bozo he was...

[MrSpartan]

Originally Posted by Lochgelly

I'm sorry if I upset you...it was just a crass joke..

still Woody? COME ON...

We hate him...what bozo he was...

It's all good man, and now thanks to the posters that remember that era I now know Woody Hayes was a d*ck towards both MSU and scUM.

[MSULordyoda]

Wow, I get to bump this up....whoo hoo. I have a question for those that are talking about the probation. My dad says pretty much the same thing about Woody but he also feels Bo had a bit to do with it too. What were the "violations" back then? I see you guys mention stuff others did as well but nothing actually said. I only ask because I want to know...I'm not old enough to have been around at that point.

Also, yes the Southern schools integrating dried up the massive pipeline we had but I really do agree that the probation was what closed it off. When the penalties were that bad, it was easier for the souther schools to get those guys.

[Cronos]

Originally Posted by monty4msu

When i first read this thread, i thought the question was, did MSU consider Woody instead of Duffy. And what impact would that have made on MSU football. Duffy was the right man for the job at the time, his only problem was leaving the cupboard bare when he left. As a result, the only way to catch up in the eyes of Stolz was to cheat. Most (self included) would say that Stolz didnt do anything that Woody, Bo, ect... were doing. The problem was that Woody blew the whistle and MSU football paid the price, and is still paying the price today. Woody is no friend of MSU football.

Have you read the book Spartan seasons? All the NCAA could find was an assistant coach gave a player money to go to his grandfather's funeral. A player, not a recuit. telling recruits that MSU will give them money to go to their grandfathers funerals if they die doesn't seem like much of a recruiting strategy. Denny Stoltz kicked Woody Hayes ***** in recruiting and Woody got mad.

[RahRahRah]

This board is nuts....someone posts something outrageous and it's a downward spiral.

Any analysis that does not consider the John DiBioggio - Marily Dee Baker - Pete McPhearson debacle as the primary factor is just plain crazy

[GatorBill]

Originally Posted by MSULordyoda

Wow, I get to bump this up....whoo hoo. I have a question for those that are talking about the probation. My dad says pretty much the same thing about Woody but he also feels Bo had a bit to do with it too. What were the "violations" back then? I see you guys mention stuff others did as well but nothing actually said. I only ask because I want to know...I'm not old enough to have been around at that point.

Also, yes the Southern schools integrating dried up the massive pipeline we had but I really do agree that the probation was what closed it off. When the penalties were that bad, it was easier for the souther schools to get those guys.

tNCAA Probation debacle is the only thing in their entire lives where Bo and Woody worked hand in hand to get something done.

[GatorBill]

Originally Posted by RahRahRah

This board is nuts....someone posts something outrageous and it's a downward spiral.

Any analysis that does not consider the John DiBioggio - Marily Dee Baker - Pete McPhearson debacle as the primary factor is just plain crazy

Johnny D., Merrily, and Petey were far to late in the process to be the primary factor. They were just pawns in the game of life compared to the Woody factor.

[IGGcitable]

Originally Posted by RahRahRah

This board is nuts....someone posts something outrageous and it's a downward spiral.

Any analysis that does not consider the John DiBioggio - Marily Dee Baker - Pete McPhearson debacle as the primary factor is just plain crazy

The DiBiaggio-Baker-McPherson fiasco was a reaction to Perle$$$ having/demanding too much power, which was a reaction to the weak and ineffectual Muddy Waters, who was hired in a panic when Perle$$ bailed out on the job after Darryl Rogers bolted to ASU, Rogers had been hired to bring in a fresh face and clean out the entire football program after Denny Stolz was fired in disgrace due to the devastating NCAA probation .... concocted/instigated by Woody Hayes.


Didn't feel like recreating or quoting the entire flow chart, but that boils it down to about four degrees of separation.

[Ron_in_ATL]

Originally Posted by scimini

What if they hadn't shied away from Switzer, what if Osborne could have persuaded his assistants to come the first time or out of retirement the second time. We can play these what if games all year with the football program.

And the potential coaches are just a part of the what ifs.

Why not just hire Tark "The Shark" and trash the entire sports program???

I liked the Sooners as much as anyone else but the off-field stuff was off the charts (players getting paid, players dealing crack, etc...)

[scimini]

Muddy Waters was there all the time, they didn't just pull his name out of thin air.

It has been a few decades, but I seem to remember it was MSU not Perles the first time around who screwed things up.