Lidstrom: the second best Red Wing all time?

wingfanjim · 06-05-2008, 02:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Krazee Eyez Killa

Let's not carried away.

If Yzerman stayed healthy and played in Edmonton instead of Gretzky, he still would not have had Gretzky-like numbers.

Yzerman averaged .45 goals a game and missed 18.4 games a year. That works out to 8.28 "lost" goals a year. Multiply that by his 23 year career and you get an additional 193 goals to add to his 692 career goals for a total of 885 goals. Gretzky finished with 894. Pretty damn close if you ask me.

Yzerman wouldn't have come close to Gretzky in assists or points though. Even if you added the 305 "lost" assists that Yzerman missed out on due to injuries and added them to his 1063 assists he actually had in his career it would have paled in comparison to Gretzky's 1963 career assists.

Obviously, Yzerman would never have been iron man and played every single possible game of his career, but it does go to show you how close he could have gotten if he'd been more durable.

Krazee Eyez Killa · 06-05-2008, 03:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wingfanjim

Yzerman averaged .45 goals a game and missed 18.4 games a year. That works out to 8.28 "lost" goals a year. Multiply that by his 23 year career and you get an additional 193 goals to add to his 692 career goals for a total of 885 goals. Gretzky finished with 894. Pretty damn close if you ask me.

Yzerman wouldn't have come close to Gretzky in assists or points though. Even if you added the 305 "lost" assists that Yzerman missed out on due to injuries and added them to his 1063 assists he actually had in his career it would have paled in comparison to Gretzky's 1963 career assists.

Obviously, Yzerman would never have been iron man and played every single possible game of his career, but it does go to show you how close he could have gotten if he'd been more durable.

I've never seen the game of hockey played with a calculator before. I believe you would be called a 'stat rat.'

Gretzky had some injuries as well so you would have to factor that into it.

Stevie Y had a great career but a lot more goes into than calculating goals per game and 'lost' games.

wingfanjim · 06-05-2008, 03:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Krazee Eyez Killa

I've never seen the game of hockey played with a calculator before. I believe you would be called a 'stat rat.'

Gretzky had some injuries as well so you would have to factor that into it.

Stevie Y had a great career but a lot more goes into than calculating goals per game and 'lost' games.

I absolutely agree. However, you can't deny that statistically speaking, the case could be made that if Yzerman had stayed healthy, he would have had a shot at being in the same realm as Gretzky when it came to goal scoring. I'm not saying he would have done it, but I'm saying that based on his performance, he could have.

Also, Gretzky played over 74 games a season on average. If you redo my calculations based upon Yzerman playing the same amount of games a season he would have ended up with 804 goals. That would be 3 goals ahead of Gordie Howe in 2nd place behind Gretzky's 893.

Ron_in_ATL · 06-05-2008, 07:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Heat Miser

I say no. Yzerman led them out of the abyss.

And was Capt at a much younger age!

AvgMSUJoe · 06-05-2008, 09:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nals

Howe, Yzerman, Lidstrom, Abel, Sawchuk

In no particular order the greatest wings ever.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Heat Miser

1. Howe
1a. Yzerman
1b. Lidstrom
2. Sawchuck
3. Lindsay

Quote:

Originally Posted by Madison1991

I could talk this out for hours. And not make a final determination until Nick is finally done. What a nice debate to have. I wish the other team down the street would give us such grist for the mill (no, not the Tigs).
As of today, I still go:

1. Howe
2. Yzerman
3. Lidstrom (hold the n)
4. Lindsay
5. Sawchuk

L's qualifications will blow by Yzerman in a couple of years. But hard to argue with his intangibles. Dude damn near tore his knee apart in late 80s and mid 90s and was still money in the early 00s. Hard to argue with that!

FWIW, Osgood has 4X the cups and more playoff wins (and shutouts) than Sawchuk...

wingfanjim · 06-05-2008, 09:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AvgMSUJoe

FWIW, Osgood has 4X the cups and more playoff wins (and shutouts) than Sawchuk...

3 cups. He wasn't here in 2002.

Heaph · 06-05-2008, 09:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pablo Fanque

I think it would be pretty hard to argue convincingly that Gordie Howe wasn't the greatest player in Red Wings franchise history. He's Mr. Hockey for **** sake.

The obvious name that would be mentioned for no. 2 best player would be Steve Yzerman.

As much as I thought Steve Yzerman was great -- my favorite NHL player ever -- Lidstrom's gotta be right there with him.

Lidstrom:

Plays constantly. The guy's practically the Lou Gehrig of hockey.
He logs a ****load of minutes, playing against the opposing teams' best lines, night in, night out
He's won 5 Norris Trophies, soon to be six
He's been no. 1 or no. 2 on the Norris Trophy ballot nine (9) times!
He's never had a major penalty
He has 4 Stanley Cups

Yzerman himself said Lidstrom was the best player he's ever played with, an amazing statement considering Stevie played with a ton of hall-of-famers like Shanahan, Hull, Chelios, Vernon, Federov, Larionov (the "Russian Wayne Gretzky"), Fetisov, etc.

What do you think?

They are both great players, however, Stevie Y wins the 2nd best Wings all time. The guy is far and away my favorite professional player to watch and respect. The fact that Yzerman compliments him in that way adds to the respect. He changed his game when Bowman showed up. The Wings were struggling mightly when Yzerman came into the league. Blew out a knee that normally is career ending and personally carried the Wings to the Cup in 2002. It's a tough call because both guys are classy. In another thread some Pitt fan tried to compare Crosby with Stevie Y. That is a joke right now. Someday? Doubtful. He must have been watching too much of the NBC pimp cast of "the Kid".

Toolman · 06-05-2008, 09:45 AM

There are alot of original six names that come into play here, Stevie Y also. Lets just say here is very good and high on the list and leave it at that.

Pablo Fanque · 06-13-2008, 09:13 AM

With Lidstrom sealing his 6th Norris Trophy, it's getting harder to argue that he's not Stevie Y's equal.

I guess it's not fair to ignore old timers like Delvecchio. It seems to me that Yzerman and Lidstrom were both more impactful in their eras then Delvecchio was in his, but, again, not by a lot.

SpartyRob13 · 06-13-2008, 09:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by newlander

I love Nick and he deserves all the credit in the world, BUT........it's still 1) Mr. Hockey
2) Stevie Y-numbers and longevity still better than Nick 3) Nick is solidly at 3 over names like Lindsay, Delvecchio, Sawchuk, etc..........He's also as Melrose said tonight the #3 defenseman of all time in the league. I assume he's got Bobby Orr #1 and probably Ray Borque #2. (he didn't specify) Bottom line: Nick is a once in a lifetime player and defenseman.

Nick Lidstrom > Ray Borque

In a pylon st8ofmind · 06-13-2008, 10:07 AM

Lindstrom????

icer · 06-13-2008, 10:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AvgMSUJoe

FWIW, Osgood has 4X the cups and more playoff wins (and shutouts) than Sawchuk...

Osgood has 4X the cups than Sawchuk???? Sawchuk won the cup in 50, 52, 54 and 55. Osgood won in 97, 98, and 08. By my count Sawchuk leads 4 to 3.

MHockeyFan · 06-13-2008, 10:26 AM

I am a huge Yzerman fan but at this point I would probably say that Nick has had the better career right now ON THE ICE. I say that b/c he has been a top-2 player at his position 9 times (norris voting) and has 4 cups. He also is a true ironman especially considering he plays on D. I mean the guy is so consistent and never gets injured. Sure Stevie has better numbers but that's b/c Nick plays D and when you compare Nick's career numbers vs. his peers, he is near the top. Certainly if he plays another 3 years, gets 1 more cup and possibly another norris then I think you have to put him as #2 (and possibly approaching #1).

But...Yzerman may still rank higher right now considering all elements b/c of the way he rescued the franchise and b/c of his captaincy during all those years. His leadership is unquestioned. The way he fought through the injuries, etc. It's a good question b/c I think I can make a case for both of them.

Pablo Fanque · 06-13-2008, 10:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MHockeyFan

I am a huge Yzerman fan but at this point I would probably say that Nick has had the better career right now ON THE ICE. I say that b/c he has been a top-2 player at his position 9 times (norris voting) and has 4 cups. He also is a true ironman especially considering he plays on D. I mean the guy is so consistent and never gets injured. Sure Stevie has better numbers but that's b/c Nick plays D and when you compare Nick's career numbers vs. his peers, he is near the top. Certainly if he plays another 3 years, gets 1 more cup and possibly another norris then I think you have to put him as #2 (and possibly approaching #1).

But...Yzerman may still rank higher right now considering all elements b/c of the way he rescued the franchise and b/c of his captaincy during all those years. His leadership is unquestioned. The way he fought through the injuries, etc. It's a good question b/c I think I can make a case for both of them.

Good post. Thanks.

The only thing I would take exception with is your comment that Yzerman "rescued the franchise." Certainly, he was the marquis player, the reason why fans started come back to Wings games. But, Illitch built a team around him. The Wings were a nice little team in the late 80's, but it wasn't until they added players like Lidstrom, Federov, Konstantinov, Draper, Larionov, Coffey, etc. in the early to mid 90's that they became the premiere franchise in the NHL. Put it this way: with Stevie Y alone, they wouldn't have gone anywhere. He would have been a great player on a mediocre to bad team.

Sprinkles · 06-13-2008, 10:43 AM

I don't want to be a part any Best (or even 2nd best) Redwing thread that doesn't mention Harold Snepsts.

Goalies Rule · 06-13-2008, 11:56 AM

Wow, great debate guys.

I think Ive got to give it to Lidstrom. He has just been too darn good and now the words "greatest ever" are being thrown around. The guy is just too dominating.

Yzerman on the other had, was also great, but he has leadership skills that far exceed Lidstrom. Thats was makes Yzerman great. He had the numbers as well, but I think comparing the 2 of them, Lidstrom has now edged him out.

Goalies Rule · 06-13-2008, 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spartyirish

There's Howe.............and then everyone else. There is no second best; this would be an insult to each era's stars.

Exactly, I think everyone is implying that Howe is #1, then its the debate from there

Pablo Fanque · 06-13-2008, 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Goalies Rule

Wow, great debate guys.

I think Ive got to give it to Lidstrom. He has just been too darn good and now the words "greatest ever" are being thrown around. The guy is just too dominating.

Yzerman on the other had, was also great, but he has leadership skills that far exceed Lidstrom. Thats was makes Yzerman great. He had the numbers as well, but I think comparing the 2 of them, Lidstrom has now edged him out.

Why? Lidstrom has been captain for how many years? Three seasons? In that time, he's brought one Stanley Cup and, if I remember right, 2 President's Trophies.

Some of you have short memories. There were a few seasons there in the early to mid 90's when Yzerman's teams just couldn't get it done in the playoffs. They lost to worse teams and looked bad doing it at times. YZERMAN WAS ALMOST TRADED FOR **** SAKE. Management wanted him gone but Illitch, wisely, told them that Yzerman stays put. Sportswriters and fans were calling for his head and claiming that he would never be a great leader until he could win a cup. So for as talented as he was, his "leadership abilities" were questionable (or at least questioned) for years!

Not bashing Yzerman. He's my favorite NHL player. But let's not go off the deep end about what a tremendous captain he was. It took him years to make that team his and help it get a Stanley Cup and he didn't do it alone.

Pablo Fanque · 06-13-2008, 12:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spartyirish

Then you don't understand my post; there should not be a DEBATE.

Or he doesn't care that you have declared this a non-issue.

PRStoetzer · 06-13-2008, 12:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pablo Fanque

Why? Lidstrom has been captain for how many years? Three seasons? In that time, he's brought one Stanley Cup and, if I remember right, 2 President's Trophies.

Some of you have short memories. There were a few seasons there in the early to mid 90's when Yzerman's teams just couldn't get it done in the playoffs. They lost to worse teams and looked bad doing it at times. YZERMAN WAS ALMOST TRADED FOR **** SAKE. Management wanted him gone but Illitch, wisely, told them that Yzerman stays put. Sportswriters and fans were calling for his head and claiming that he would never be a great leader until he could win a cup. So for as talented as he was, his "leadership abilities" were questionable (or at least questioned) for years!

Not bashing Yzerman. He's my favorite NHL player. But let's not go off the deep end about what a tremendous captain he was. It took him years to make that team his and help it get a Stanley Cup and he didn't do it alone.

Two seasons. 2 Central Division Championships, 2 Western Conference Regular Season Championships, 1 Presidents' Trophy, 1 Western Conference Championship, 1 Stanley Cup

Pablo Fanque · 06-13-2008, 12:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PRStoetzer

Two seasons. 2 Central Division Championships, 2 Western Conference Regular Season Championships, 1 Presidents' Trophy, 1 Western Conference Championship, 1 Stanley Cup

Yeah, he sucks as a captain.

Pablo Fanque · 06-13-2008, 12:33 PM

Did youse all forget about this? Devellano talks about Yzerman on the trading block.

Quote:

Was Yzerman almost traded?
Filed Under (My Favorites, Management) by Christy Hammond
The Detroit News had a great roundtable discussion with the big names in the Detroit Red Wings management including the team owner, GM, assistant GM, and VP. One of the many topics discussed was Yzerman.

News: How close was Steve Yzerman to being traded?
Devellano: There were talks. Steve Yzerman knows that. I’ve told him that. But as I told Stevie, even while it was going on, ‘Look, Steve, if you’re going to be dealt to Ottawa, we have to get something real good now to replace you and a whole lot more for the future.’ Ottawa couldn’t deliver on it. I don’t even think they could pay the contract, could they, Scotty?
Bowman: No, I don’t think so. I remember Jimmy saying, ‘You’re just spinning your wheels, because Mike Ilitch would never trade Steve Yzerman.’ And I remember Mike coming to me after my first year here — because Steve got injured that year — and saying, ‘You haven’t even seen what this guy can do.’
News: Did it ever come to your desk, Mr. Ilitch?
Ilitch: No, and I didn’t want it to come. (Laughter.) I’d heard the rumblings, but…

Behind the Jersey: No. 19 » Blog Archive » Was Yzerman almost traded?

MHockeyFan · 06-13-2008, 12:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pablo Fanque

Good post. Thanks.

The only thing I would take exception with is your comment that Yzerman "rescued the franchise." Certainly, he was the marquis player, the reason why fans started come back to Wings games. But, Illitch built a team around him. The Wings were a nice little team in the late 80's, but it wasn't until they added players like Lidstrom, Federov, Konstantinov, Draper, Larionov, Coffey, etc. in the early to mid 90's that they became the premiere franchise in the NHL. Put it this way: with Stevie Y alone, they wouldn't have gone anywhere. He would have been a great player on a mediocre to bad team.

Well I say "rescued the franchise" b/c he kept the fans coming AND gave Illitch someone to build a team around (similar in some ways to the Pens). True, the Wings were not a great team in his early years but at least he gave the fans a reason for hope. I remember them taking on the Oilers in the playoffs and realistically there was no way they were going to beat the Oilers but everyone was at least interested in the series to see if Stevie could work some magic against the Great One. Without others, no way they go on later to win the Cup but without Stevie there might have been another 5 years or more of missing the playoffs entirely.

ChefKosmo · 06-13-2008, 12:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mentalstate

do also keep in mind, Stevie Y was 5'9 with no outstanding physical attribute, and just brought it for 20 years...

Pablo Fanque · 06-13-2008, 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MHockeyFan

Well I say "rescued the franchise" b/c he kept the fans coming AND gave Illitch someone to build a team around (similar in some ways to the Pens). True, the Wings were not a great team in his early years but at least he gave the fans a reason for hope. I remember them taking on the Oilers in the playoffs and realistically there was no way they were going to beat the Oilers but everyone was at least interested in the series to see if Stevie could work some magic against the Great One. Without others, no way they go on later to win the Cup but without Stevie there might have been another 5 years or more of missing the playoffs entirely.

Fair enough.

I think we both agree that Illitch built a great franchise around Steve. Obviously, Yzerman was a huge component to their success.