Lidstrom: the second best Red Wing all time?

[MHockeyFan]

Originally Posted by Detroiter

Lidstrom is a top 2 at his position because of the competition. There just haven't been many good defenseman during Lidstrom's time. Pronger and Blake have been injured. Stevens is overrated. Bourque and Chelios were older. Lidstrom hasn't had competition and that's why he's been able to win the award. Look what Yzerman has gone up against: Gretzky, Mario, Messier, Sakic, Forsberg, Francis, Lindros, Jagr, Fedorov, Hull, Modano, etc. I'm sure I'm probably forgetting some names.

Lidstrom is #3 and will remain #3 no matter what he wins. Heck, Draper, Maltby, McCarty, and Holmstrom have more hardwar than Yzerman. Just because Yzerman was overlooked and didn't win the awards he won doesn't mean Lidstrom had the better career. IMO Lidstrom doesn't even come close. Let's not forget that Yzerman played alot of his career with a bad knee.

I am not comparing them solely based on hardware but it's a bit silly to compare a forward to a defenseman directly. What do you look at - point totals or highlight reel goals?? Of course Stevie has more points. And you reference the tougher competition at forward but it some ways that makes the argument - maybe it's tougher to excel/stand out as a defensemen. The fact that Lids has dominated his era helps his argument, it doesn't make him a lesser player. Unless you are one of those that thinks that all the best hockey players play forward and the leftovers go on defense . No way, coaches often put their most dependable and consistent players on the back end so they can play more and so they can control the game more.

And yes, Stevie was legendary for battling through that knee injury but Lids should be legendary for never having a serious injury. C'mon to play on D against the top lines for 15 years and to only miss a handful of games - now that is bringing it every night. That's part of what makes Lids special. Think if you are the coach - you know that almost every game Lids is going to be out there controlling the game, neutralizing the other team and sparking your offense from the back end. Sure makes your life easier.

And I acknowledged right now that Stevie might be considered better b/c of the leadership and intangibles but to say it isn't close is just wrong.

[Z.Cavaricci]

This doesnt mean much but I remember when Stevie won his last cup he was asked a questions about how it felt and he said "All I know is that Nick Lidstrom is the best player to ever wear a Red Wing uniform"

Show you the class Stevie has and the respect he had for Nick's game.

Comparing old time hockey players to the new is not easy to do. There wasnt as much talent in the league and it was a different game.

[Pablo Fanque]

Originally Posted by Detroiter

Lidstrom is a top 2 at his position because of the competition. There just haven't been many good defenseman during Lidstrom's time. Pronger and Blake have been injured. Stevens is overrated. Bourque and Chelios were older. Lidstrom hasn't had competition and that's why he's been able to win the award. Look what Yzerman has gone up against: Gretzky, Mario, Messier, Sakic, Forsberg, Francis, Lindros, Jagr, Fedorov, Hull, Modano, etc. I'm sure I'm probably forgetting some names.

Lidstrom is #3 and will remain #3 no matter what he wins. Heck, Draper, Maltby, McCarty, and Holmstrom have more hardwar than Yzerman. Just because Yzerman was overlooked and didn't win the awards he won doesn't mean Lidstrom had the better career. IMO Lidstrom doesn't even come close. Let's not forget that Yzerman played alot of his career with a bad knee.

Since Lidstrom was drafted by the Wings, the following have won the Norris Trophy:

Ray Borque -- 3x (won it a few times before Lidstrom drafted)
Chelios -- 2x
Coffey -- 1x (won it a few times before Lidstrom drafted)
Leetch -- 2x
Blake
MacInnis
Pronger
Niedemeyer

If you want to just look at who won Norris Trophies after Lidstrom came in the league, I think you have to subtract 2 of Borque's trophies as they came in 1989 and 1990 (I believe)

His playing career has overlapped with all those guys while they were still great players. Lidstrom's head and shoulders above all of them!

You wanna compare Yzerman's competition at the forward position. Great. Don't forget that there are more forwards than defensemen. The high skill guys, for the most part, end up a winger or center. So, of course, there should have been more competition for him than for Lidstrom.

I haven't counted the NHL trophies by position, but aren't there more trophies that forwards can win than defensemen? If that's true, Yzerman had more chances to win hardware than Lidstrom.

[Lochgelly]

Anybody that doesn't have Gordie Howe at the top of his/her list is losing all credibility.

In the NHL..He is Mr. Hockey...next to Gretzky...its Howe...then Orr...

Howe was atremedous athlete that could play as good as he wanted to at will...in a day when the league was actually rougher than it is now...

Howe had to act as his own goon for most of his career....

WHen Howe was near the end of his career...Gretzky came up from behind him and stole the puck and scored...the next shift...when Gretzky wasn't looking Howe came up and elbowed him right in his face, breaking his nose...Gretzky lay there on the ice bleeding...Howe looked down at him and said..."don't ever embarrass me on the ice again kid..."

Not even McSorley dared retaliating...

Howe was sucha good athlete...here's a good story...he never bowled before...so back in '52 the older guys took the rookie bowling...they said that Howe threw the bowling ball so hard at the pins he almost broke them...

oh yeah...his score for his very first bowling game ever?

220.

[Spartan Punk]

Originally Posted by Detroiter

I've seen them both play and Yzerman was the better player. Yes, Howe was tougher but that doesn't make him the better player. Probert, Kocur, etc. were tougher than Yzerman and they weren't considered better players. I know most of you don't think too highly of Yzerman's career because he wasn't a self-centered, flashy, egotistical player like Howe or Lidstrom, but the bottomline is Yzerman was the best Red Wing ever and that's not taking anything away from Lidstrom or Howe. They were both great players, but Yzerman was better.

Wow.

[Krazee Eyez Killa]

Originally Posted by Lochgelly

Anybody that doesn't have Gordie Howe at the top of his/her list is losing all credibility.

In the NHL..He is Mr. Hockey...next to Gretzky...its Howe...then Orr...

Howe was atremedous athlete that could play as good as he wanted to at will...in a day when the league was actually rougher than it is now...

Howe had to act as his own goon for most of his career....

WHen Howe was near the end of his career...Gretzky came up from behind him and stole the puck and scored...the next shift...when Gretzky wasn't looking Howe came up and elbowed him right in his face, breaking his nose...Gretzky lay there on the ice bleeding...Howe looked down at him and said..."don't ever embarrass me on the ice again kid..."

Not even McSorley dared retaliating...

Howe was sucha good athlete...here's a good story...he never bowled before...so back in '52 the older guys took the rookie bowling...they said that Howe threw the bowling ball so hard at the pins he almost broke them...

oh yeah...his score for his very first bowling game ever?

220.

Where did you hear this Gretzky/Howe story? That sounds made up.

And I think you settled the debate on who the best bowler is of the 3.

[Pablo Fanque]

Originally Posted by Detroiter

No, the only trophy that only a forward can win is selke. There is no trophy for best forward. All those names you mentioned, Yzerman has had a better career than them. That isn't competition. If Coffey, Chelios, and Bourque had been in their prime then you can make a case. Lidstrom has had no competition whatsoever and that's why he has been able to win so many Norris trophies. The bottomline is that Yzerman had the better career. Just because he didn't win meaningless trophies doesn't mean he was a worse player than those that won them.

Please define "in their prime."

They won Norris Trophies both before and after Lidstrom came into the league.

Is Lidstrom in his prime now? Please say no.

Coffey was a great player until the mid 90's. Chelios has had great years as a Wing. Obviously, he's not what he was 15 years ago, but he's one of the best ever and has been solid even in the latter part of his career. Bourque was a force until the end of his career. The guy coulda had 2 or 3 more solid seasons.

I just named Norris Trophy winners. Lidstrom played with great, but older, defensemen like Slava Fetisov and Larry Murphy, both Hall of Famers.

What about Konstantinov? During his short career, he was as good as anyone in the NHL. The guy had a plus 60 season, while Lidstrom was his teammate.

Lidstrom played with plenty of GREAT defensemen. You might want to take a peak at the NHL Hall of Fame.

By your argument, Brooks Robinson could never be as good of a third baseman as Dan Schatzeder was a pitcher because there are more pitchers than 3rd basemen to compete against.

[Pablo Fanque]

Originally Posted by Detroiter

Yzerman's biggest flaw is that he wasn't selfish at all. He was too much of a team player and he shied away from the spotlight too much to the point where it hurt his career. He sacrificed his personal stats for the team. He changed his game in the middle of his career and it turned out to hurt him more than it helped him. Howe and Lidstrom didn't make sacrifices and cared more about personal accomplishments than Yzerman did. That's why they will be remembered by most as great players and Yzerman will be remembered as a good player.

Please. Just stop. You're making yourself look silly.

I'll repeat this here, even though I said it above in this thread: Yzerman himself said Lidstrom is the best player he has ever played with. Period. He didn't need to say it, but he did. Why do you think he would say that about a selfish player only concerned about personal accomplishments?

Are you sure you understand that we're talking about Nick Lidstrom and not Sergei Federov?

[Pablo Fanque]

Originally Posted by Detroiter

1. I consider playing in their prime when they are playing their best hockey. Those guys had their best years before Lidstrom started winning the Norris trophy. Those all great players you mentioned, but Yzerman was better than everyone of them including Lidstrom.

2. I'm saying that Yzerman had better competition. Mario and Gretzky are the two greatest hockey players of all-time. Lidstrom's biggest competition was Bourque and he wasn't even as good careerwise as Yzerman.

3. You brought up another point that makes Yzerman look even better. Lidstrom played on a loaded team for his entire career. Yzerman did not. Yzerman played with minor league caliber players for the early part of his career and carried this team on his back.

1. You're begging the question. Lidstrom started winning the Norris Trophy because he was the best defenseman in the league, not because a few players you've hand-picked to talk about were wrapping up their careers.

2. What you're really saying is that Yzerman was a better player than Lidstrom because he wasn't the best player at his position. How does that work? Lidstrom, for the last decade, has been THE BEST defenseman in the NHL! There is no 10 year stretch in which Yzerman was the best forward in the league. How many seasons did Yzerman outscore Gretzky or Lemiuex?

3. Yzerman played on the a lousy team for about 3 seasons. He was in the league 22 years. Within 3 years of him entering the league, the Wings started making the playoffs semi-regularly and then got on their playoff appearance streak after Lidstrom joined the team. The same point you are making could be argued the other way. You don't think Yzerman benefited from having good defensemen behind him like Coffey, Murphy, Lidstrom, Fetisov, Konstantinov, Chelios and a whole bunch of other steady guys? The bulk of Yzerman's career was spent on good to great teams, all pre-salary cap.

[AASpartan]

Originally Posted by Detroiter

I consider playing in their prime when they are playing their best hockey. Those guys had their best years before Lidstrom started winning the Norris trophy.

There were also a few seasons where most people considered Nicklas Lidstrom the best defenseman in the game (pundits, writers, etc.,) where the Norris Trophy went elsewhere. Like 98-99 when MacInnis won it. MacInnis got the trophy because he was a sentimental favorite nearing the end of his career. He was more known for his slapshot than his defense (like Paul Coffey).

Before they started finally giving Lidstrom his due on the awards front, he finished 2nd in voting three straight years (98-99-00). He's literally been the best defenseman in the league in over a decade. All this "no competition" stuff is crap.

[Pablo Fanque]

Originally Posted by Detroiter

No, completely wrong. Lidstrom is the best defenseman because he didn't have any competition. The players mentioned were great, but they are nowhere near as great as Gretzky, Mario, Messier, Yzerman, Sakic, Jagr, Forsberg, etc. Yzerman wasn't the best forward in the league mainly because of Gretzky and Mario, but also because of his knee injuries. It also didn't help that he played with minor league caliber players for the first 8 years of his career. The team was lousy for more than 3 years, try 8 years. Without Yzerman that team weren't have even become good at all.

You are very biased because Lidstrom is your favorite player. Lidstrom is my favorite too, but that doesn't keep me from being too blind to see that Yzerman was better. If Lidstrom was truly the better player then Illitch wouldn't have retired Yzerman's number first. He would've waited until after retiring Lidstrom's number.

Yzerman's my favorite player. Doesn't mean that I think he was a lot better -- or better at all -- than Lidstrom.

[Pablo Fanque]

Originally Posted by Detroiter

There were also times that Lidstrom won the trophy and didn't deserve it. It goes both ways. The right player doesn't always win the trophies. It's completely subjective. Yzerman was robbed of the hart trophy a couple times and a calder trophy.

Wait a second, you just got done saying Lidstrom was the best defenseman since he started winning Norris Trophies because he had no competition at his position. If he has not had competition at the position, wouldn't he have deserved the NT every year?

So, please tell me in which years he won Norris Trophies he didn't deserve to win and who should have won them instead.

You're contradicting yourself.

[Z.Cavaricci]

Originally Posted by Detroiter

Yzerman is very underrated and it's a shame he doesn't get the credit he deserves even from Red Wings fans.

I agree with this but a lot of the other stuff you are saying is very far off.

Many people dont know this but of the top 13 highest scoring seasons of all time, Gretzky and Lemieux hold spots 1 through 12, Yzerman is 13.

[Pablo Fanque]

Originally Posted by Detroiter

Hatcher, Nediermayer, and Pronger. Not sure of the years. Those guys really aren't all that great anyways and aren't really competition. Let me put it to you this way, out of Lidstrom's competition how many of those defenseman fall in the top 30 greatest players of all-time? Only Bourque. Out of Yzerman's competition, how many of those players fall in the top 30? Gretzky, Mario, Messier, Sakic, Jagr, Forsberg, etc.

Show me why Hatcher, Niedemayer and Pronger were better defensemen than Lidstrom. Conveniently, you don't know the years and you keep clinging to your own contradiction that players that were not very good were better than Lidstrom, even though you admit Lidstrom was the the best. Is Lidstrom the best of the defensemen in the last 10 years or is he not? It's a simple question.

Show me a list of Top 30 players all-time. Where is that list? You do realize, don't you, that list will have more forwards on it than defensemen?

Lidstrom, at age 37, not only won his 6th Norris Trophy, he was second in the NHL in plus/minus rating of plus 40, one point behind Pavel Datsyuk. The next closest guy was a plus 33. Lidstrom had 70 points, more scoring than most forwards. If you cannot admit that he is, in the latter stages of his career, a dominant player, you are extremely misinformed. The guy is a ****ing machine.

ESPN - NHL Hockey Statistics and League Leaders - National Hockey League

[Devils Abogado]

Originally Posted by Z.Cavaricci

I agree with this but a lot of the other stuff you are saying is very far off.

Many people dont know this but of the top 13 highest scoring seasons of all time, Gretzky and Lemieux hold spots 1 through 12, Yzerman is 13.

Plus he was a great defensive player, too...

[Pablo Fanque]

[quote=Detroiter;4820899]That doesn't mean you are right either./quote]

I'm dead-on right about not being biased against Yzerman. How could I be biased against my favorite hockey player?

[Z.Cavaricci]

I also think Nick missed out on some trophys because he isnt a physical force on the blue line. It isnt east to see just how good he is out there because he isnt hitting people and taking care of people who crash the net. I think he should have 2 more trophys.

At this point though, I will still have to go with Yzerman over Nick. When all is said and done, I may change my mind and I think I probably will.

[Z.Cavaricci]

Originally Posted by Detroiter

but Lidstrom got at least 3 that he didn't deserve.

.

No he didnt. Which ones and provide stats to prove he didnt deserve them.

You cant say that because he was on a good team he didnt deserve them. The team was good in large part because of him.

[Pablo Fanque]

Originally Posted by Detroiter

I would have to say no. No, I don't know the years and I really don't care. I just know that there were years he didn't deserve it, kind of like that conn smythe in 2002 that should've went to Yzerman. You also have to remember that Lidstrom didn't start his NHL career at as young of an age as Yzerman and he didn't have to carry a team like Yzerman did. For years, Yzerman was the team. So Yzerman had more wear and tear on him than Lidstrom. Lidstrom started when he was 22, well when Yzerman was that age that was when he suffered his knee injury that should've ended his career. He was suppose to retire, but he chose not to. So all that time Yzerman played on a bad knee. Just think what he would've did with a healthy knee.

The things you are unable to do on the ice or the playing field don't count in your favor. If they did, Vladimir Konstantinov would be the best defenseman of the last 30 years. No, ever! We can imagine all the success he would have had if only he hadn't been in that car accident.

Yzerman "was the team" for about 3 years. By the late 80's, the Wings were a playoff caliber team and there was talent around him. By the early 1990s, when guys like Federov, Lidstrom and Konstantinov came along, the team was loaded. MOST OF YZERMAN'S CAREER WAS PLAYED WHILE ON GOOD TEAMS. You can keep saying otherwise, but the numbers don't support you.

You can talk about Lidstrom starting at age 22. Who the eff cares? He's 37 and playing as well as anyone in the NHL! In terms of ability and stamina, he's got plenty left in the tank. He's not done playing yet.

[Hurricane Izzo]

Originally Posted by Detroiter

Even in Yzerman's last playoffs he was a better player than Lidstrom

Better at what?

I think, first of all, that this is an "unwinnable" argument. People have their opinions.

My opinion is:

Favorite player - Yzerman
Best player - Lidstrom

Its my opinion that Lidstrom has been the best player in the entire NHL over the last 10 years. Not just best defensemen, but best player period.

I think the true measure is his impact on other players. From Konstantinov (my favorite player before he got hurt), to Murphy, Schneider, and now Rafalski, every player that plays with Nick has the best season of their careers. It isn't an accident, the guy makes it so much easier on everyone else.

[Pablo Fanque]

Originally Posted by Detroiter

Yzerman was the team for until the mid 90s. He carried that team on his back. They became good because of Yzerman. If the wings hadn't drafted Yzerman do you really think those teams in the 80s and 90s make the playoffs? I highly doubt it and I also doubt all those Europeans would've been drafted. Devellano would've probably been fired before then. Yzerman saved his career with the Wings. His drafts after that until the 89 draft stunk and I doubt the wings would've kept him around if he hadn't drafted Yzerman.

You make it seem like Yzerman was just some guy that was along for the ride, but that's not the case. He made that team and without him there is no cups. We'd still win 3 cups without Lidstrom. Heck they would've won this 4th cup without Lidstrom. Without Yzerman there is no cups.

And another Konstantinov has not played so you can take into account anything. Yzerman played on a bad knee for 18 years, yes 18 years.

You seem to think that I'm taking something away from Yzerman. I'll say it for about the 5th time in this thread.
YZERMAN
IS
MY
FAVORITE
NHL
PLAYER
EVER!
I don't like him because he was a nice guy or 'cuz he was with the team for his whole career. I like him because he was a GREAT PLAYER.

If Yzerman truly carried the team until the mid-90's and they wouldn't have won those Stanley Cups without him, he shoulda won cups his first three years in the league. It doesn't work that way. Yzerman was a HUGE part of what became a great all-around hockey club. He was a great player surrounded by lots and lots of other talented players. The 2002 ****ing team had 6 future Hall of Famers on it not named Steve Yzerman (Lidstrom, Shanahan, Chelios, Hull, Hasek, Robitaille) and some great players like Datsyuk, Federov, Larionov, Fischer, Holmstrom, etc. etc.

Without Yzerman, the Wings wouldn't have been as good. Without the other mega-talent the Wings have had over the years, no cups for Steve Yzerman.

It's a team game.

[Pablo Fanque]

Originally Posted by Detroiter

Better at hockey. Lidstrom was horrible in that playoffs. He was on the ice for almost every single one of Edmonton's goals. Lidstrom gets caught out of position alot. Those players didn't have the best seasons of their career with Lidstrom. They've all had better seasons when they didn't play with Lidstrom.

The bottomline,

Favorite - Lidstrom
Best by far and away, it's really not even close - Yzerman

Lidstrom doesn't get caught out of position any more than any other player that plays 35 minutes a game. You can't be out of position "a lot" and have a plus 40 rating.

He has bad games like everyone else. I saw a Wings/Predators game this season and one of the Preds' forwards carried the puck in, right at Nick. He deeked him, turned him around and Lidstrom fell on his ass. The Preds scored on that play. That type of thing doesn't happen to Nick very often. Staying in position and taking the puck away from the opponents are the things he does as well as any defenseman I've ever seen.

[Pablo Fanque]

Originally Posted by Detroiter

I think alot of you probably didn't follow the wings until they started winning so you didn't see his entire career. Lidstrom has never played at a level that high that Yzerman did when he was at his best.

Yzerman's number would not be retired right now if Lidstrom had the better career. Lidstrom's would be retired first and then eventually Yzerman's number. If Yzerman was really as bad as you guys are making him seem then his number wouldn't be retired at all period. You don't retire the number of some guy that was just there for the ride and wasn't a big part of the success. There is more to hockey than winning awards and trophies. Yzerman changed his game. If he hadn't done that he would've won more awards.

Who was the last athlete you have seen who had his number retired while he was still playing?

I'm such a fool. I should have realized about 8 posts back that you're just trolling.

[Floyd Robertson]

Originally Posted by Detroiter

I think alot of you probably didn't follow the wings until they started winning so you didn't see his entire career. Lidstrom has never played at a level that high that Yzerman did when he was at his best.

Yzerman's number would not be retired right now if Lidstrom had the better career. Lidstrom's would be retired first and then eventually Yzerman's number. If Yzerman was really as bad as you guys are making him seem then his number wouldn't be retired at all period. You don't retire the number of some guy that was just there for the ride and wasn't a big part of the success. There is more to hockey than winning awards and trophies. Yzerman changed his game. If he hadn't done that he would've won more awards.

WTF

Did you even think about this before you typed it?

[Lochgelly]

Originally Posted by Krazee Eyez Killa

Where did you hear this Gretzky/Howe story? That sounds made up.

And I think you settled the debate on who the best bowler is of the 3.

I looked and I looked on the webs...but couldn't find it...

Nonetheless, I remember a TV interview where Wayne talked about this...

Somebody back me up here...this not a a bs story