Lidstrom: the second best Red Wing all time?

[Pablo Fanque]

Originally Posted by Detroiter

The only reason Yzerman didn't win cups in his early years was because of this guy named Gretzky and his team the Oilers. If not for that they probably would've won a few cups. I'll admit the wings would've won the cup in 97 without Yzerman, but not 98 or 02. Yzerman was the wings best player in both of those cups runs. I realize the 2002 had alot of HOFers, but that supposed nonHOFer was the best player on one leg. He led them in scoring. He even outscored the supposedly great Lidstrom.

The bottomline is that Yzerman was a better player than Lidstrom.

This is turning into great comedy.

You do know, don't you, that Lidstrom won the Conn Smythe in 2002.

[Floyd Robertson]

Originally Posted by Detroiter

I didn't say that Lidstrom's number should be retired while he was still playing. All I'm saying is that if Lidstrom was really the better that they would've waited until after Lidstrom was done playing and had his number retired to retire anyone elses number. Illitch would retire the better player's number first and he chose to retire Yzerman's number. He didn't have to do that. He could've waited until after Lidstrom or he could've not retired Yzerman's at all.

Again.



Please keep it up, because this just keeps getting better and better.

Next thing you'll say is that Gordie's number should be taken out of retirement and worn by a player until Lidstrom retires and his sweater is hanging from the rafters.

[Z.Cavaricci]

There are so many things wrong in this thread it kills me.

#1 - Yzerman having his jersey retired has nothing to do with being or not being better than Lidstrom

#2 - Nick plays more minutes than almost anyone in the league. Making that statement that he is out of position a lot is so far off. People around the NHL praise Nick because he is always in the right position.

#3 - Ask around the NHL and see what they say about Nick. You will hear nothing more than "He is one of the best players in the history of the NHL" Even Don Cherry admits that.

If Nick Lidstroms career ended today, he would go down as being one of the greatest D men of all time. BUT....he would not have been considered to have a better career than Yzerman. If he stays on this team and in the league up until 40 years old...the argument can be made.

[Floyd Robertson]

Originally Posted by Detroiter

Let me explain this a bit better. I'll use the Devils as an example. Ken Danyeko retired before Scott stevens, but the Devils didn't retire Danyeko's number right away. They waited until after Stevens retired and had his number retired. If the Wings really felt that Lidstrom was the better player then they would've done the same thing with Yzerman that the Devils did with Danyeko.

More likely that the Devils revised/relaxed their standards on the type of career that justifies the retirement of a number in their organization.

[Z.Cavaricci]

Originally Posted by Detroiter

Of course I know that. Yzerman was the better player and deserved the conn smythe.

Yzerman's quote was from this year. 2002

[Pablo Fanque]

Originally Posted by Detroiter

Of course I know that. Yzerman was the better player and deserved the conn smythe.

Just one more example of Lidstrom getting an award he didn't deserve.

That's the way to win an argument. Just say that everything the other guy earned wasn't deserved.

[Z.Cavaricci]

Originally Posted by Detroiter

Do you really expect Yzerman to say I was the better player, I should've won the conn smythe? Of course not.

No, he would never do that. He is the classiest guy in the world. But he could have answered the question. Trust me...he truly believes that. Wether it is true or not still remains to be seen.

[Pablo Fanque]

Originally Posted by Detroiter

I didn't say that everything he earned wasn't deserved. He deserved some of the Norris trophies and even one that he didn't win. However, he didn't deserve the conn smythe in 2002. Even Fedorov was more deserving. Yzerman and Fedorov were the two best players in the 02 playoffs.

Let's do your math:

Lidstrom got 3 Norris Trophies and 1 Conn Smythe he didn't deserve. He deserved 1 Norris Trophy he didn't get. That's a net loss of 3 awards to Nick.

Shall we count how many all star games, olympic medals and other accomplishments he achieved that he didn't "deserve"? Maybe we can subtract a few points from his plus-minus ratings over a few seasons. We could take some assists away, too. After all, what's an assist if the other player doesn't put the puck in the net?

You're right. Lidstrom's an overrated player that doesn't deserve the praise he has gotten in his career.

[Redwingenator]

Lidstrom is the 3rd best Red Wing of all time:

#1) Yzerman (If Stevie had played as many games as Gordy he would have 6 more goals and 185 more points hypothetically ending up 2nd in points and 2nd in goals)

#2) Howe (2nd in goals and 3rd in points)

#3) Lidstrom (6 Norris Trophies and he might add a couple more to tie Orr) If Lidstrom plays as many games as Bourque he will end up 6th in all defensemen in points and 3rd in +/-.

Lidstrom will have to play 10 more seasons to pass Paul Coffey for 2nd in points.

[Pablo Fanque]

Originally Posted by Redwingenator

Lidstrom will have to play 10 more seasons to pass Paul Coffey for 2nd in points.

Coffey was a helluva scoring defenseman. Seems like his defensive skills were a bit suspect.

[Hurricane Izzo]

Originally Posted by Detroiter

Better at hockey. Lidstrom was horrible in that playoffs. He was on the ice for almost every single one of Edmonton's goals. Lidstrom gets caught out of position alot. Those players didn't have the best seasons of their career with Lidstrom. They've all had better seasons when they didn't play with Lidstrom.

The bottomline,

Favorite - Lidstrom
Best by far and away, it's really not even close - Yzerman

Scotty Bowman, who knows a thing or two about hockey, disagrees with your assessment of his performance that playoff:

"You look at what Nicklas Lidstrom did all the way through the playoffs and he was just about a perfect player on the ice," said Detroit coach Scotty Bowman, who announced his retirement after the game. "It's really a wonderful tribute to him."

[Redwingenator]

Originally Posted by Pablo Fanque

Coffey was a helluva scoring defenseman. Seems like his defensive skills were a bit suspect.

True, but he still finished with a career +/- of 294. Phil Housley is a "defenseman" with suspect defensive skills finishing 4th in points with a +/- of negative 53.

[MHockeyFan]

Originally Posted by Z.Cavaricci

There are so many things wrong in this thread it kills me.

#1 - Yzerman having his jersey retired has nothing to do with being or not being better than Lidstrom

#2 - Nick plays more minutes than almost anyone in the league. Making that statement that he is out of position a lot is so far off. People around the NHL praise Nick because he is always in the right position.

#3 - Ask around the NHL and see what they say about Nick. You will hear nothing more than "He is one of the best players in the history of the NHL" Even Don Cherry admits that.

If Nick Lidstroms career ended today, he would go down as being one of the greatest D men of all time. BUT....he would not have been considered to have a better career than Yzerman. If he stays on this team and in the league up until 40 years old...the argument can be made.

QFT. And the best one.....Lidstrom is a selfish player

I cannot think of why any sane person would say that (Detroiter...catch my drift? ) Lids has never campained for any award, never demanded anything from the team, has stayed away from the camera and is only becoming a focus now b/c Stevie has retired and people are finally realizing how great he has been over 15 years.

What's remarkable is how often you see forwards beat other defensemen but when it finally happens to Nick, we all notice and remember it since it's so extraordinary.

Seriously, one of the best arguments you can make is that Nick has played with guys such as Murph (at the end of his career basically being cut from the Leafs), Lilja (can you imagine having him as your D-partner on the top line and still performing at an elite level?) and now Rafalski (who was obviously good before) that suddenly have career years.

Also, Lids was what 4th in MVP voting (very rare for a D-man to rank that high) at age 37?

Stevie was a GREAT player and IMO Lids has reached that same level and is likely to surpass it if he plays another 2-3 years.

[MHockeyFan]

Originally Posted by Redwingenator

True, but he still finished with a career +/- of 294. Phil Housley is a "defenseman" with suspect defensive skills finishing 4th in points with a +/- of negative 53.

But I think very few would rank Coffey as an equal to Lidstrom at this point regardless of the stats.

[MHockeyFan]

Originally Posted by Redwingenator

Lidstrom is the 3rd best Red Wing of all time:

#1) Yzerman (If Stevie had played as many games as Gordy he would have 6 more goals and 185 more points hypothetically ending up 2nd in points and 2nd in goals)

#2) Howe (2nd in goals and 3rd in points)

#3) Lidstrom (6 Norris Trophies and he might add a couple more to tie Orr) If Lidstrom plays as many games as Bourque he will end up 6th in all defensemen in points and 3rd in +/-.

Lidstrom will have to play 10 more seasons to pass Paul Coffey for 2nd in points.

NO. First, it does matter how many games you play - that is part of your career. Mario would be at Wayne's level EXCEPT THAT his career was shortened so Wayne ranks higher.

More importantly, if you judge them across time, Gordie is #1. I don't doubt that Stevie was probably more talented but you have to take into account when they played. Gordie played at a time that games were rough and tight. Gordie won six league MVP awards and six scoring championships with the Detroit Red Wings. He was called Mr. Hockey (league-wide, not just in Detroit). The length of his career was off the charts. Sorry, Gordie is #1 for me. I love Stevie but he is 2a and Lids is 2b at this point for me.

[MHockeyFan]

Originally Posted by Detroiter

Look at Lidstrom's partner, Rafalski. That's why Lidstrom was 4th in MVP voting. He played with a great defenseman and it certainly helps. I'd love to see what Lidstrom would do on team that wasn't stacked. He'd be average.

No, Lidstrom hasn't reached that level. When Lidstrom leads his team to a Stanley Cup on one leg then get back to me. Yzerman is and will always be at a much higher level than Lidstrom.

Up until this year, Lids has usually played with mediocre partners. See the other names I mentioned.

Lids would be average on a non-stacked team? You mean for 15 years, every team has been a "stacked" team? Don't you think it's possible that the team appears to be stacked b/c Lids is a part of it. Remember, he went down for his longest stretch earlier this year and the team (admittedly with other injuries) took a nosedive.

[Hurricane Izzo]

Originally Posted by Detroiter

The same Scotty Bowman that wanted to trade Yzerman to Ottawa for Stan Neckar and Martin Straka. Ya, he sure knows what he's talking about. He never really saw Yzerman play in his early years so he doesn't have a clue.

This argument just ended for me.

[Pablo Fanque]

Originally Posted by Redwingenator

#1) Yzerman (If Stevie had played as many games as Gordy he would have 6 more goals and 185 more points hypothetically ending up 2nd in points and 2nd in goals)

.

But that didn't happen.

If my grandma had balls, she'd be grandpa.

[Redwingenator]

Originally Posted by Detroiter

Thank you. Finally someone that gets it. Yzerman is so badly underrated even by Wings fans that it's disgusting. It surprises me how much more he is respected outside of Detroit than he is by his own fans. It almost makes me wish that Yzerman had played somewhere else.

Yzerman might be a little underrated simply because he was scoring 50+ goals a season from 1988-1993 when the Wing's stunk. It wasn't until the finals loss to the Devils that people started to take notice of the team. Stevie put aside goal scoring to win Stanley Cups so many people that ended up being huge Red Wing fans were not there to see him when he was a scoring machine. Yzerman is honored and respected by even those sports fans that don't follow hockey. The city of Detroit still greatly appreciates him. The bottom line is that some may underrate his scoring ability, but nobody underrates his leadership and work ethic.

[Pablo Fanque]

Originally Posted by MHockeyFan

NO. First, it does matter how many games you play - that is part of your career. Mario would be at Wayne's level EXCEPT THAT his career was shortened so Wayne ranks higher.

More importantly, if you judge them across time, Gordie is #1. I don't doubt that Stevie was probably more talented but you have to take into account when they played. Gordie played at a time that games were rough and tight. Gordie won six league MVP awards and six scoring championships with the Detroit Red Wings. He was called Mr. Hockey (league-wide, not just in Detroit). The length of his career was off the charts. Sorry, Gordie is #1 for me. I love Stevie but he is 2a and Lids is 2b at this point for me.

Khrist! The Michigan guy is making more sense than a lot of you Spartans.

[Redwingenator]

Originally Posted by Pablo Fanque

But that didn't happen.

If my grandma had balls, she'd be grandpa.

I'm just trying to put things in perspective. Who was the better running back, Emmit Smith or Barry Sanders?

[Z.Cavaricci]

Wait wait wait.....now Scotty Bowman doesnt know anything ? My god. You are talking about one of the greatest coaches in the history of sports.

Come on Detroiter. You can't say Nick is overrated and you can't say Scotty doesnt know anything. If anything Nick is underrated....but so is Stevie, i agree with you there. You also questioned how Detroit fans feel about Stevie in your earlier post. Detroit fans think Stevie walks on water.....so do I.

I also believe Stevie is the greatest leader in Detroit sports history. Way better than Nick will ever be. As far as how good each is at the game, Nick is on his way to be the best.

[Pablo Fanque]

Originally Posted by Redwingenator

Yzerman might be a little underrated simply because he was scoring 50+ goals a season from 1988-1993 when the Wing's stunk.

The Wings didn't "stink" during that period. They were 186-163-55 in that stretch. Were they great? No. But they were a decent club.

Season

Div.

GP

W

L

T

OTL

SOL

Pts

Pct

GF

GA

PIM

Coach

Result

1988-89	Norris	80	34	34	12	0	0	80	0.500	313	316	2245	Jacques Demers	Lost in round 1
1989-90	NHLN	80	28	38	14	0	0	70	0.438	288	323	2140	Jacques Demers	Out of Playoffs
1990-91	NHLN	80	34	38	8	0	0	76	0.475	273	298	1940	Bryan Murray	Lost in round 1
1991-92	NHLN	80	43	25	12	0	0	98	0.613	320	256	2078	Bryan Murray	Lost in round 2
1992-93	Norris	84	47	28	9	0	0	103	0.613	369	280	1832	Bryan Murray	Lost in round 1

[Spartan Punk]

Originally Posted by Detroiter

Thank you. Finally someone that gets it. Yzerman is so badly underrated even by Wings fans that it's disgusting. It surprises me how much more he is respected outside of Detroit than he is by his own fans. It almost makes me wish that Yzerman had played somewhere else.

Seriously, you need to stop with this Yzerman is so badly underrated by Wings fans crap. Just because some people think that Howe and/or Lidstrom may be better than Yzerman doesn't man that people think Yzerman sucked. This is just getting very weird now. Or maybe you're thinking or Paul Yzebart instead of Steve Yzerman.

[Redwingenator]

Originally Posted by Z.Cavaricci

Wait wait wait.....now Scotty Bowman doesnt know anything ? My god. You are talking about one of the greatest coaches in the history of sports.

Come on Detroiter. You can't say Nick is overrated and you can't say Scotty doesnt know anything. If anything Nick is underrated....but so is Stevie, i agree with you there. You also questioned how Detroit fans feel about Stevie in your earlier post. Detroit fans think Stevie walks on water.....so do I.

I also believe Stevie is the greatest leader in Detroit sports history. Way better than Nick will ever be. As far as how good each is at the game, Nick is on his way to be the best.

You could very well be right. The hardware he is accumulating says more about his career and the respect he carries throughout the league than his stats.