Lidstrom: the second best Red Wing all time?

[MHockeyFan]

Originally Posted by Pablo Fanque

Khrist! The Michigan guy is making more sense than a lot of you Spartans.

See things are back to normal after all.

[JDR]

Originally Posted by Detroiter

Yzerman is very extremely underrated by Wings fans. No matter what he did he was never as good as Howe and now Lidstrom. He could've ended up with more points and you guys would still say Howe and Lidstrom were better. Wings fans used to do the same with Fedorov, but he didn't like it so he left. He was smart to leave.

You're a schtick, right? I mean, you'd have to be to keep posting this nonsense. Please save us all the wasted time reading your posts and just stop.

[Z.Cavaricci]

Originally Posted by Detroiter

Yzerman is very extremely underrated by Wings fans. No matter what he did he was never as good as Howe and now Lidstrom. He could've ended up with more points and you guys would still say Howe and Lidstrom were better. Wings fans used to do the same with Fedorov, but he didn't like it so he left. He was smart to leave.

You are so misinformed. Sergei didnt leave because Wings fans didnt respect him. He left for a change of scenery. He and Anna broke up and he wanted change in his life. I know this because I was around the team during this time. It wasnt about money or fame. He simply had spent a long time here and was ready to move on.

Also, I dont know where you are getting the idea that Scotty didnt think highly of Stevie...that is just plain wrong. Scotty knew that Steve was the captain of this team and he needed to change his game to win. It DID cause tension when Scotty first came to Detroit and in an attempt to make the Wings better Scotty suggested Stevie be traded. Illitch put a stop to that and told Scotty to keep him around to see what Stevie was all about and it ended up working out. Scotty realized how important he was to the team and they worked together to change his game.

I dont know anyone who doesnt think Yzerman is a god. He is the best athlete this city has had in my lifetime. His heart alone made him a warrior. I am still pissed they took the mural down of him in downtown Detroit which is my current desktop background.

You are making a lot of assumptions about players and coaches that just arent true.

[Redwingenator]

Originally Posted by Pablo Fanque

The Wings didn't "stink" during that period. They were 186-163-55 in that stretch. Were they great? No. But they were a decent club.

The Wings stretch of finishing 34-34, 28-38, and 34-38 probably didn't do much to grow the fan base and those records sucked compared to what the Wings set in motion with the addition of Scotty Bowman and a few Russians defecting. The last 2 years of that period going 43-25 and 47-28 probably helped a little, but early playoff exits still ensued. I was bringing up the old records to support my opinion that there were not many fans of today that saw Yzerman as a pure scorer since it wasn't until Stevie changed his style of play that the Red Wings became incredibly popular.

Between 1967 and 1983, Detroit only made the playoffs twice, winning one series. Yzerman came into a bad team initially with very little fan interest.

[Pablo Fanque]

Originally Posted by MHockeyFan

See things are back to normal after all.

Hey, don't get carried away!

[Pablo Fanque]

Originally Posted by Redwingenator

Between 1967 and 1983, Detroit only made the playoffs twice, winning one series. Yzerman came into a bad team initially with very little fan interest.

But after 1983 -- and Yzerman deserves a tremendous amount of credit for this -- the Wings steadily improved.

You'd agree that they were a better team in 1988 than 1983, wouldn't you?

[Redwingenator]

Originally Posted by Pablo Fanque

But after 1983 -- and Yzerman deserves a tremendous amount of credit for this -- the Wings steadily improved.

You'd agree that they were a better team in 1988 than 1983, wouldn't you?

Without question they began to improve and Yzerman was the first part in creating the future dynasty.

[Pablo Fanque]

Originally Posted by Detroiter

Scotty wasn't around when Yzerman was at his best so he doesn't know much about Yzerman. He was ready to trade Yzerman for basically a bag of pucks....

Again, you overstate your case with silly exaggerations. I know you're making a point, but the reason why Yzerman didn't get traded was because the organization WAS NOT willing to give him away for nothing. They wanted a ton in return, but weren't going to get it. I posted this article on page 2. I'll post it again.

Was Yzerman almost traded?
Filed Under (My Favorites, Management) by Christy Hammond
The Detroit News had a great roundtable discussion with the big names in the Detroit Red Wings management including the team owner, GM, assistant GM, and VP. One of the many topics discussed was Yzerman.News: How close was Steve Yzerman to being traded?
Devellano: There were talks. Steve Yzerman knows that. I’ve told him that. But as I told Stevie, even while it was going on, ‘Look, Steve, if you’re going to be dealt to Ottawa, we have to get something real good now to replace you and a whole lot more for the future.’ Ottawa couldn’t deliver on it. I don’t even think they could pay the contract, could they, Scotty?
Bowman: No, I don’t think so. I remember Jimmy saying, ‘You’re just spinning your wheels, because Mike Ilitch would never trade Steve Yzerman.’ And I remember Mike coming to me after my first year here — because Steve got injured that year — and saying, ‘You haven’t even seen what this guy can do.’
News: Did it ever come to your desk, Mr. Ilitch?
Ilitch: No, and I didn’t want it to come. (Laughter.) I’d heard the rumblings, but…

[Pablo Fanque]

Originally Posted by Redwingenator

Without question they began to improve and Yzerman was the first part in creating the future dynasty.

I agree, that's one of many reasons why he's my favorite hockey player of all time.

I'm just arguing heavily on the Lidstrom side because most the reasons I'm seeing, especially from Detroiter, about why Lidstrom could not be the second best Wing of all time just don't seem to be terribly strong arguments.

[Pablo Fanque]

Originally Posted by Detroiter

I think it's obvious that Lidstrom is your favorite player. You have no respect for Yzerman or his career and that's sad, but not surprising. Most Wings fans don't respect Yzerman or his career. You haven't even given any good reasons as to why Lidstrom should be ranked higher.

This is my new favorite schtick.

[MHockeyFan]

Originally Posted by Detroiter

Yzerman is very extremely underrated by Wings fans. No matter what he did he was never as good as Howe and now Lidstrom. He could've ended up with more points and you guys would still say Howe and Lidstrom were better. Wings fans used to do the same with Fedorov, but he didn't like it so he left. He was smart to leave.

Yep. Perennial All-Star in Detroit. Left and become an overpaid afterthought playing on bad teams. Yep, great move for Feds, no doubt.

[Pablo Fanque]

Originally Posted by Detroiter

It's better to be an overpaid afterthought than a underpaid afterthought like Yzerman.

You've got a great point. No one in Detroit, but you, likes Yzerman.

[MHockeyFan]

Originally Posted by Detroiter

It isn't about being liked or disliked. Fedorov did what was best for his career. Had he stayed in Detroit it would've been worse for him. He would've had to play third fiddle to Datsyuk and Zetterberg. Fedorov's career would've really took a nose dive. What did staying in Detroit do for Yzerman's career? Nothing because he had to sacrifice too much. He took a lesser role for the good of team and it hurt is numbers. Now everyone thinks a much worse player, Lidstrom, has had a better career. Had Yzerman left Detroit he probably would've finished in the top 10 hockey players of all-time.

You are sinking to new depths. Feds career did take a nose dive. He would have been better to stay (at least for points and championships). Plus the Wings had offered similar $$ IIRC.

Yzerman - he cemented a HOF career by staying with the wings and won 3 cups. He probaby will be more remembered for that than if he piled up a bunch of points for a lesser club (which would have ended his career early anyway b/c of greater strain on his knee). Plus he is being groomed for management and is taking over Canada's team - Oh, the tragedy of it all

You need to get help if you are serious about this.

[Pablo Fanque]

Originally Posted by Detroiter

It isn't about being liked or disliked. Fedorov did what was best for his career. Had he stayed in Detroit it would've been worse for him. He would've had to play third fiddle to Datsyuk and Zetterberg. Fedorov's career would've really took a nose dive. What did staying in Detroit do for Yzerman's career? Nothing because he had to sacrifice too much. He took a lesser role for the good of team and it hurt is numbers. Now everyone thinks a much worse player, Lidstrom, has had a better career. Had Yzerman left Detroit he probably would've finished in the top 10 hockey players of all-time.

Really?

Re-read the posts in this thread. Most here seem to think Yzerman has had a better career than Lidstrom.

I think they are (were) both amazing players and relative equals at their respective positions. They obviously cannot be fairly compared to one another directly because Yzerman was a forward and Lidstrom a defenseman.

Yzerman gets plenty of respect and praise and love and recognition. You're the only person I've ever come across that seems worried about Stevie Y's legacy.

[Redwingenator]

Originally Posted by Detroiter

It isn't about being liked or disliked. Fedorov did what was best for his career. Had he stayed in Detroit it would've been worse for him. He would've had to play third fiddle to Datsyuk and Zetterberg. Fedorov's career would've really took a nose dive. What did staying in Detroit do for Yzerman's career? Nothing because he had to sacrifice too much. He took a lesser role for the good of team and it hurt is numbers. Now everyone thinks a much worse player, Lidstrom, has had a better career. Had Yzerman left Detroit he probably would've finished in the top 10 hockey players of all-time.

Fedorov made a poor career choice by leaving Detroit and I don't think he would have left if he had it to do again. NHL All-Star 1992, 1994, 1996, 2001, 2002, 2003. Selke Trophy - 1994, 1996. Hart Memorial Trophy - 1994. Lester B. Pearson Award - 1994. 3 time Stanley Cup Champion: 1997, 1998, 2002, all with Detroit. Detroit was willing to overpay to keep him and he obviously wanted to get out of Detroit since he took less money to play for the Ducks and fell into obscurity.

[PRStoetzer]

Originally Posted by Pablo Fanque

Really?

Re-read the posts in this thread. Most here seem to think Yzerman has had a better career than Lidstrom.

I think they are (were) both amazing players and relative equals at their respective positions. They obviously cannot be fairly compared to one another directly because Yzerman was a forward and Lidstrom a defenseman.

Yzerman gets plenty of respect and praise and love and recognition. You're the only person I've ever come across that seems worried about Stevie Y's legacy.

Dude. Detroiter is Alexey, rw19, etc. A troll that has posted under many names for the past several years on Wings message boards. He varies between taking the position that Yzerman wasn't a very good player and that Yzerman was awesome, but that everybody hates him.

He has been banned from several Wings message boards and apparently was seeking out another forum to spread his drivel when he found this one.

[SpartanBrizz]

Originally Posted by wingfanjim

I absolutely agree. However, you can't deny that statistically speaking, the case could be made that if Yzerman had stayed healthy, he would have had a shot at being in the same realm as Gretzky when it came to goal scoring. I'm not saying he would have done it, but I'm saying that based on his performance, he could have.

Also, Gretzky played over 74 games a season on average. If you redo my calculations based upon Yzerman playing the same amount of games a season he would have ended up with 804 goals. That would be 3 goals ahead of Gordie Howe in 2nd place behind Gretzky's 893.

I think people forget what a huge offensive threat Stevie was early in his career as well. If it wasn't for a certain guy in Pittsburgh, he would have a very different reputation now (the year Stevie scored 65 goals, an incredible number, Lemieux finished with 85 goals and 199 points)

Season GP G A PTS
1987-88 64 50 52 102
1988-89 80 65 90 155
1989-90 79 62 65 127
1990-91 80 51 57 108
1991-92 79 45 58 103
1992-93 84 58 79 137


look at the kudos Ovechkin gets today, and then look at those stats again over a SIX year period (and the fact that even w/ 65 goals, ovechkin only had 47 assists to go with them). Once Bowman arrived in '93 though, his role changed and he became more of a leader than a scorer. As it is he is Sixth all time in scoring....he could very easily have been 2nd or 3rd for his career had he not voluntarily changed with the new system.

[SpartanBrizz]

Originally Posted by Detroiter

I will repeat my response: Yzerman also said that there would never be a salary cap. Yzerman also said that Fedorov was the best player he ever played with. The bottomline, not everything Yzerman says is the truth. Yzerman would never admit that he is the best Red Wing of all-time even though it's the truth. If Yzerman really felt that Lidstrom was so much better than him then he should've turned down the number retirement ceremony and said Lidstrom deserves it first.

that's ******ed. i'm pretty sure Lidstrom is still playing, and doesn't wear #19. you are a moron.

[SpartanBrizz]

Originally Posted by Detroiter

I didn't say that Lidstrom's number should be retired while he was still playing. All I'm saying is that if Lidstrom was really the better that they would've waited until after Lidstrom was done playing and had his number retired to retire anyone elses number. Illitch would retire the better player's number first and he chose to retire Yzerman's number. He didn't have to do that. He could've waited until after Lidstrom or he could've not retired Yzerman's at all.

once again: ******ED. seriously, you are embarrassing yourself.

And this was such a good thread for about two pages.

[PRStoetzer]

Originally Posted by SpartanBrizz

once again: ******ED. seriously, you are embarrassing yourself.

And this was such a good thread for about two pages.

Dude. Read my post above. This guy is a schtick that's been lurking every Red Wings forum for at least five years.

[SpartanBrizz]

Originally Posted by Redwingenator

Lidstrom is the 3rd best Red Wing of all time:

#1) Yzerman (If Stevie had played as many games as Gordy he would have 6 more goals and 185 more points hypothetically ending up 2nd in points and 2nd in goals)

#2) Howe (2nd in goals and 3rd in points)

#3) Lidstrom (6 Norris Trophies and he might add a couple more to tie Orr) If Lidstrom plays as many games as Bourque he will end up 6th in all defensemen in points and 3rd in +/-.

Lidstrom will have to play 10 more seasons to pass Paul Coffey for 2nd in points.

Which is why Lidstrom is a better DEFENSEman than Paul Coffey (one of the most over rated defensemen in NHL history). Points are irrelevant to rating the best ever on defense.

1)Howe
2) Stevie Y
3) Lidstrom (for now)

Lidstrom has time to pass Stevie, but I don't think he ever really will be able to. Stevie resurrected the Dead Things into a bona fide dynasty and Nik has carried on what he started. I don't think anyone could surpass #19 and #8 in the hearts and Minds of Red Wing fans.

[SpartanBrizz]

Originally Posted by MHockeyFan

But I think very few would rank Coffey as an equal to Lidstrom at this point regardless of the stats.

His "goal" in the 96 WCF against the Avs will forever malign him in my eyes. god that sucked.

[SpartanBrizz]

Originally Posted by Detroiter

Scotty wasn't around when Yzerman was at his best so he doesn't know much about Yzerman. He was ready to trade Yzerman for basically a bag of pucks. For whatever reason he doesn't think too highly of Yzerman, so I take his comments with a grain of salt.

Nick is not underrated. Underrated players don't win 6 norris trophies, a conn smythe, and whatever other awards he's won. Yzerman is the only that's underrated.

I'm pretty sure he had a tv though

[SpartanBrizz]

Originally Posted by PRStoetzer

Dude. Read my post above. This guy is a schtick that's been lurking every Red Wings forum for at least five years.

then ban him and let this return to the great discussion it was before this douche showed up.

[Detroiter]

Originally Posted by SpartanBrizz

then ban him and let this return to the great discussion it was before this douche showed up.

I deleted all my posts. I was wrong about everything. It's Lidstrom and Howe at the top then everybody else. Sorry for intruding. Have a nice day.