Lidstrom: the second best Red Wing all time?

Pablo Fanque · 06-05-2008, 01:24 AM

I think it would be pretty hard to argue convincingly that Gordie Howe wasn't the greatest player in Red Wings franchise history. He's Mr. Hockey for **** sake.

The obvious name that would be mentioned for no. 2 best player would be Steve Yzerman.

As much as I thought Steve Yzerman was great -- my favorite NHL player ever -- Lidstrom's gotta be right there with him.

Lidstrom:

Plays constantly. The guy's practically the Lou Gehrig of hockey.
He logs a ****load of minutes, playing against the opposing teams' best lines, night in, night out
He's won 5 Norris Trophies, soon to be six
He's been no. 1 or no. 2 on the Norris Trophy ballot nine (9) times!
He's never had a major penalty
He has 4 Stanley Cups

Yzerman himself said Lidstrom was the best player he's ever played with, an amazing statement considering Stevie played with a ton of hall-of-famers like Shanahan, Hull, Chelios, Vernon, Federov, Larionov (the "Russian Wayne Gretzky"), Fetisov, etc.

What do you think?

Jason Grillis Sofa · 06-05-2008, 01:25 AM

Agree

PRStoetzer · 06-05-2008, 01:26 AM

Not sure I can place him above Steve Yzerman, but he's damn close.

Nals · 06-05-2008, 01:28 AM

Howe, Yzerman, Lidstrom, Abel, Sawchuk

In no particular order the greatest wings ever.

Pablo Fanque · 06-05-2008, 01:28 AM

He hasn't played as long as Yzerman, but he's got a few more good years in him.

I'm tellin' you, we're lucky to get to see a player like Lidstrom.

Paul Woods just called him the best defensemen in NHL history (arguably.)

Heat Miser · 06-05-2008, 01:28 AM

1. Howe
1a. Yzerman
1b. Lidstrom
2. Sawchuck
3. Lindsay

spartanmike17 · 06-05-2008, 01:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Heat Miser

1. Howe
1a. Yzerman
1b. Lidstrom
2. Sawchuck
3. Lindsay

what a cop out

newlander · 06-05-2008, 01:33 AM

I love Nick and he deserves all the credit in the world, BUT........it's still 1) Mr. Hockey
2) Stevie Y-numbers and longevity still better than Nick 3) Nick is solidly at 3 over names like Lindsay, Delvecchio, Sawchuk, etc..........He's also as Melrose said tonight the #3 defenseman of all time in the league. I assume he's got Bobby Orr #1 and probably Ray Borque #2. (he didn't specify) Bottom line: Nick is a once in a lifetime player and defenseman.

spartanmike17 · 06-05-2008, 01:34 AM

here's a question.

Say next year he leads the wings to another stanley cup.

Does he then surpass Yzerman?

Heat Miser · 06-05-2008, 01:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spartanmike17

here's a question.

Say next year he leads the wings to another stanley cup.

Does he then surpass Yzerman?

I say no. Yzerman led them out of the abyss.

spartanmike17 · 06-05-2008, 01:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Heat Miser

I say no. Yzerman led them out of the abyss.

good point, but if he wins again that will be 5

pretty amazing if u ask me

mentalstate · 06-05-2008, 01:42 AM

Howe, Stevie Y, Lindstrom and my left wing lock boy, who I still always see on the ice... such a shame, Vladie truly dominated the game like no other.

Servo · 06-05-2008, 01:42 AM

Best defenseman in NHL history not named Orr

mentalstate · 06-05-2008, 01:52 AM

do also keep in mind, Stevie Y was 5'9 with no outstanding physical attribute, and just brought it for 20 years... and that was after the first part of his career, when Det sucked and he was the target of every team (Probert probably saved both his life and career in that regard).

newlander · 06-05-2008, 01:57 AM

Great points mentalstate. I thought of Vladie when they won tonight. He should've been out there. ****ing white trash limo driver........anyway, yeah people that didn't watch Stevie from DAY 1 don't realize how incredibly special he was from start to finish. Nick has a few years to go IMO. (Also guys, don't forget what The Captain went through with his knee, microfracture surgery and all, and came back and still grinded on it. He'll never walk well on that bad boy again: he was NAILS.)

wingfanjim · 06-05-2008, 01:59 AM

It is pretty close. However, I will say this. If Stevie Y doesn't sustain the catastrophic knee injuries he did (especially the one in March of 88) he might still be playing and would have some INCREDIBLE numbers. He lost a lot of playing time in his career due to injuries (broken collarbone in 86, knee in 88, knee in 91, herniated disc in 93, knee again in 95, ankle in 97, groin and a knee again in 98, knee again in 2000...twice, ankle in 2001...twice, knee in 2002...three times, groin in 2004, groin in 2005).

If he had stayed healthy...especially his back and his knees, just think of the type of numbers he would have had. He started breaking down towards the end of his career because of his knees. His injuries may have been the difference between winning possibly 1-3 more stanley cups over the span of his career.

What if he had been fully healthy in 87 when the Wings played the Oilers in the Campbell Conference Finals? A host of other what-ifs could be asked.

Lidstrom has been blessed with incredible health due to his style of play. If Yzerman would have been as blessed, this wouldn't even be a contest. In fact, Lidstrom might not have been wearing the C tonight because Yzerman might have still been playing.

wingnut1963 · 06-05-2008, 02:09 AM

I would rank them at this point in time...

1# Gordie Howe
2# Steve Yzerman
3# Nick Lidstrom

As far as what Melrose was saying..Nick Lidstrom is the 3rd best defensemen of all time. This is what he meant...

Bobby Orr of the Boston Bruins won the award for a record eight consecutive seasons (1968-1975). Doug Harvey won the award seven times.

Nick will have won it 6 times in a couple of weeks.

wingfanjim · 06-05-2008, 02:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wingnut1963

I would rank them at this point in time...

1# Gordie Howe
2# Steve Yzerman
3# Nick Lidstrom

As far as what Melrose was saying..Nick Lidstrom is the 3rd best defensemen of all time. This is what he meant...

Bobby Orr of the Boston Bruins won the award for a record eight consecutive seasons (1968-1975). Doug Harvey won the award seven times.

Nick will have won it 6 times in a couple of weeks.

With his style of play and his health, if he decides to stick around, he could win it 2-3 more times if he can stay in shape.

Madison1991 · 06-05-2008, 02:20 AM

I could talk this out for hours. And not make a final determination until Nick is finally done. What a nice debate to have. I wish the other team down the street would give us such grist for the mill (no, not the Tigs).
As of today, I still go:

1. Howe
2. Yzerman
3. Lidstrom (hold the n)
4. Lindsay
5. Sawchuk

L's qualifications will blow by Yzerman in a couple of years. But hard to argue with his intangibles. Dude damn near tore his knee apart in late 80s and mid 90s and was still money in the early 00s. Hard to argue with that!

wingfanjim · 06-05-2008, 02:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Madison1991

I could talk this out for hours. And not make a final determination until Nick is finally done. What a nice debate to have. I wish the other team down the street would give us such grist for the mill (no, not the Tigs).
As of today, I still go:

1. Howe
2. Yzerman
3. Lidstrom (hold the n)
4. Lindsay
5. Sawchuk

L's qualifications will blow by Yzerman in a couple of years. But hard to argue with his intangibles. Dude damn near tore his knee apart in late 80s and mid 90s and was still money in the early 00s. Hard to argue with that!

Which is exactly why I say that it would be a no contest if he'd stayed healthy. His numbers were amazing as it was, but with the talent he had around him for all those years, he could have had gretzky-like numbers if he'd stayed healthy.

spartanmike17 · 06-05-2008, 02:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wingfanjim

Which is exactly why I say that it would be a no contest if he'd stayed healthy. His numbers were amazing as it was, but with the talent he had around him for all those years, he could have had gretzky-like numbers if he'd stayed healthy.

but what if's don't get your number retired

wingfanjim · 06-05-2008, 02:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spartanmike17

but what if's don't get your number retired

Yzerman's number IS retired.

spartanmike17 · 06-05-2008, 02:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wingfanjim

Yzerman's number IS retired.

''

my bad. im tired

he would have won more cups without the injuries.

so then it would be no contest. but with more cups, i think lidstrom would be the better player.

its hard to differentiate because one was offense, and the other defense.

wingfanjim · 06-05-2008, 02:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spartanmike17

''

my bad. im tired

he would have won more cups without the injuries.

so then it would be no contest. but with more cups, i think lidstrom would be the better player.

its hard to differentiate because one was offense, and the other defense.

True, but Yzerman's individual stats would have put him up right with Gretzky just like Lidstrom is being mentioned in the same breath as Orr. The debate we would probably not be who is number #2 between Yzerman and Lidstrom, but is Yzerman better than Howe. Keep in mind that Yzerman only averaged 63.6 regular season games a year. He missed over 18 games a year on average. Add to that the toll those injuries took on his body and how it affected his performance in the games he did play and possibly shortening his career and you are talking a serious decrease in what his potential number could have been.

Theoretically, at the pace in which he scored goals during his career (roughly 1 goal every other game), he could have come within about 20 goals of what Gretzky scored in his NHL career if he'd stayed healthy and played all 82 games of every season he played in. That isn't realistic, but that gives you an idea just how close he could have been.

Krazee Eyez Killa · 06-05-2008, 02:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wingfanjim

Which is exactly why I say that it would be a no contest if he'd stayed healthy. His numbers were amazing as it was, but with the talent he had around him for all those years, he could have had gretzky-like numbers if he'd stayed healthy.

Let's not carried away.

If Yzerman stayed healthy and played in Edmonton instead of Gretzky, he still would not have had Gretzky-like numbers.