Notre Dame loses starting tight end for the season

[Randolph Junuh]

Originally Posted by calvin

I doubt they'll come within 17 of ND for the rest of Weis tenure.

Is this like a few years ago when Charlie promised that ND would never lose to MSU as long as he was the coach?

[mentalstate]

You started a senior, two juniors and two sophs on the OL. One of the two sophs was coming off a freshmen AA year, and your center was very highly rated.

Charlie had three recruiting classes, who's fault is it that a frosh lead you in receiving or that your TBs were both freshman?

What was Quinn's record his first year? And again, if he's already got two QBs with more experience, thus a better "grasp," then why Clausen?


And you dare call another coach arrogant?

Hey, look at our roster, Dantonio got playmakers in his first year. In fact, one of our starting WRs was a freshman. And this year, 2 of our 4 TBs are RS freshman. And a RS freshman may end up starting on our OL. And we had a true freshman at LB last year become a frosh AA. And our second and third DTs are sophs this year, both played last year. And our back-up QB is a soph. Man, this is a fun game to play!

And guess what- you win 43 years running, there's a chance some of those wins will be close. But in the end, you notice the "W" next to the game?


TyTyTyTyTyTyTyTy. Never, EVER reached he lows Jabba has, so EAT IT.

[Pinconning Cheese]

"What was Quinn's record his first year? And again, if he's already got two QBs with more experience, thus a better "grasp," then why Clausen?"

No, no, no! Clausen is worse at "running" the offense but he is better at "grasping" the offense. For the love of God, need he make this more crystal clear?

[Vince of 231]

Originally Posted by Pinconning Cheese

"What was Quinn's record his first year? And again, if he's already got two QBs with more experience, thus a better "grasp," then why Clausen?"

No, no, no! Clausen is worse at "running" the offense but he is better at "grasping" the offense. For the love of God, need he make this more crystal clear?

No, you are the one who is all confused. Since it takes 3 years to "grasp" the offense, Clausen can't possibly begin to do that until spring practice in 2010 (since he'll not get any bowl practice at the end of the 2009 season). But he's "running" the offense from the get-go.

[msuferd]

It was clear, and everybody but the Irish new it, that ND didn't belong in BCS games in either of their first two years under Weiss. They then went on to get humiliated by OSU & LSU in those respective bowl games, proving that ND wasn't anywhere close to being a national power. (And then further cementing that fact with a brilliant 3rd season under Weiss )

[Pinconning Cheese]

Originally Posted by Vince of 231

No, you are the one who is all confused. Since it takes 3 years to "grasp" the offense, Clausen can't possibly begin to do that until spring practice in 2010 (since he'll not get any bowl practice at the end of the 2009 season). But he's "running" the offense from the get-go.

BANG! I'd be totally embarassed if I knew what either of us was saying. You have owned me in idiot double speak and I salute you.

[mentalstate]

I'd like to personally thank you both for clearing it up. and after reading both posts, I totally understand how clausen felt after every play he managed to grasp as he was running. Or was it every play he was running as he fell into a defender's grasp? ****.

[calvin]

Originally Posted by mentalstate

You started a senior, two juniors and two sophs on the OL.

No disrespect but I'm always amazed by how people talk in definitive terms about ND yet manage to get most of their details wrong.

ND's starting OL was:

So. Young RT (returning starter)
So. Stewart RG (1st time starter)
5th Yr. Sr. Sullivan C (2 year starter)
So. Olsen LG (1st time starter)
Jr. Turkovich (1st time starter)

Thus 3/5 of ND OL were first time starters who didn't have to beat out anyone experienced because there was no one with more experience ahead of them.

Charlie had three recruiting classes, who's fault is it that a frosh lead you in receiving or that your TBs were both freshman?

Wrong, Weis had two classes.

2005 Willingham's class - Weis was with NE through the Super Bowl. NLOID was the Wed before the Super Bowl was played. Thus Weis almost couldn't recruit after he was hired on Dec 12th 2004.

2006 - Weis first full class. They were sophomores last year.

2007 - Weis' second class. They were true freshmen last year.

Thus Weis had almost no choice but to have sophomores and freshmen leading his team because Ty left no upperclassmen and he only was about to recruit the bottom two classes in his program.

Another thing that amazes me is how people just skip over the fact that Ty effectively left no upperclassmen at ND. They act as if they's no big deal and Weis should have just managed to skip over what are the core classes of any program.

[quote]What was Quinn's record his first year? And again, if he's already got two QBs with more experience, thus a better "grasp," then why Clausen?[\QUOTE]

ROFLMAO, Brady had a 5-7 record as a true freshman.

But you can't compare that to what surrounded Clausen.

Quinn was surrounded with a cast that included only one underclassman.

RB - Jones/Grant (JR's - both NFL starters)
FB - Powers-Neal (JR)
WR's - Jenkins (SR), McKnight (So)
TE - Godsey (Sr)
OL - LeVoir (Sr), Stevenson (Jr), Giles (Jr), Milligan (5th yr Sr), Molinaro (5th yr Sr)

Quinn had nothing but experienced upperclassmen surrounding him as a Freshman. In contrast Clausen had only 3 players on his offense who had been in the program for more than 2 years!

Big difference.

Also Quinn's 2004 ND team featured a defense which didn't have a single underclassman starting and only had 3 sophomores on the two deep.

To sum it up Bob Davie left Ty a program that had no gaping holes at critical positions. Ty left Weis with a program that many of us said in 2004 the bottom would fall out of in 2007 when the Sr's left.

Pete Carroll said the same thing.

-------

Carroll says he foresaw Irish's fall

USC coach Pete Carroll said he isn't completely surprised the Irish are struggling.

"Three years ago, you could see it coming," Carroll said. "They had all the juniors that played and started, and they had a really good team. Then they were seniors the next year, and they were fortunate to keep a few of those seniors around.

-------

We saw it because we follow our program and know it inside and out. For obviously reasons, outsiders like yourself don't follow our progam and when ND fired Willingham you folks leapt to the easy opinion that 'they must have just realized that he was black, and fired him'.

[quote]And you dare call another coach arrogant?[\QUOTE]

You may want to also take this up with the Washington fans, Stanford fans, and Seattle media who all state that Ty is supremely arrogant.

[quote]Hey, look at our roster, Dantonio got playmakers in his first year. In fact, one of our starting WRs was a freshman. And this year, 2 of our 4 TBs are RS freshman. And a RS freshman may end up starting on our OL. [\QUOTE]

That's good but that doesn't begin to compare to the youth that ND threw out last year.

First off the critical positions on offense are QB and OL. Those are the positions that take the longest to develop. Sam Young started as a true freshman at ND in 2006 and made the freshman all american team. Of course that had something to do with the fact that ND had 4 other Sr's on the OL to help him.

RB is the easiest position to play a young guy at because they don't have to know much about the offense to function in it. WR is a little harder but nowhere near as hard as QB and OL.

TyTyTyTyTyTyTyTy. Never, EVER reached he lows Jabba has, so EAT IT.

Oh, we'll happily eat it because we know football and understand our program and we see what Weis is building. 2007 was hard but we'll be looking back and laughing about it from 2009 onward.

[AASpartan]

I like that one. Even though 9 of 15 recruits in ND's 2005 class committed after Weis was named the coach...it was Ty's class and Weis is absolved from all blame. Is there a way that ND fans can also blame Ty for 2006's class too? Like saying that the results that drew in that class were acheived with Ty's players, so if Weis's players had been in the system...they would have gotten better football players. ND fans are awesome.

[SpartyOnInChitown]

[quote=calvin;5001440]No disrespect but I'm always amazed by how people talk in definitive terms about ND yet manage to get most of their details wrong.

ND's starting OL was:

So. Young RT (returning starter)
So. Stewart RG (1st time starter)
5th Yr. Sr. Sullivan C (2 year starter)
So. Olsen LG (1st time starter)
Jr. Turkovich (1st time starter)

Thus 3/5 of ND OL were first time starters who didn't have to beat out anyone experienced because there was no one with more experience ahead of them.



Wrong, Weis had two classes.

2005 Willingham's class - Weis was with NE through the Super Bowl. NLOID was the Wed before the Super Bowl was played. Thus Weis almost couldn't recruit after he was hired on Dec 12th 2004.

2006 - Weis first full class. They were sophomores last year.

2007 - Weis' second class. They were true freshmen last year.

Thus Weis had almost no choice but to have sophomores and freshmen leading his team because Ty left no upperclassmen and he only was about to recruit the bottom two classes in his program.

Another thing that amazes me is how people just skip over the fact that Ty effectively left no upperclassmen at ND. They act as if they's no big deal and Weis should have just managed to skip over what are the core classes of any program.

[quote]What was Quinn's record his first year? And again, if he's already got two QBs with more experience, thus a better "grasp," then why Clausen?[\QUOTE]

ROFLMAO, Brady had a 5-7 record as a true freshman.

But you can't compare that to what surrounded Clausen.

Quinn was surrounded with a cast that included only one underclassman.

RB - Jones/Grant (JR's - both NFL starters)
FB - Powers-Neal (JR)
WR's - Jenkins (SR), McKnight (So)
TE - Godsey (Sr)
OL - LeVoir (Sr), Stevenson (Jr), Giles (Jr), Milligan (5th yr Sr), Molinaro (5th yr Sr)

Quinn had nothing but experienced upperclassmen surrounding him as a Freshman. In contrast Clausen had only 3 players on his offense who had been in the program for more than 2 years!

Big difference.

Also Quinn's 2004 ND team featured a defense which didn't have a single underclassman starting and only had 3 sophomores on the two deep.

To sum it up Bob Davie left Ty a program that had no gaping holes at critical positions. Ty left Weis with a program that many of us said in 2004 the bottom would fall out of in 2007 when the Sr's left.

Pete Carroll said the same thing.

-------

Carroll says he foresaw Irish's fall

USC coach Pete Carroll said he isn't completely surprised the Irish are struggling.

"Three years ago, you could see it coming," Carroll said. "They had all the juniors that played and started, and they had a really good team. Then they were seniors the next year, and they were fortunate to keep a few of those seniors around.

-------

We saw it because we follow our program and know it inside and out. For obviously reasons, outsiders like yourself don't follow our progam and when ND fired Willingham you folks leapt to the easy opinion that 'they must have just realized that he was black, and fired him'.

[quote]And you dare call another coach arrogant?[\QUOTE]

You may want to also take this up with the Washington fans, Stanford fans, and Seattle media who all state that Ty is supremely arrogant.

Hey, look at our roster, Dantonio got playmakers in his first year. In fact, one of our starting WRs was a freshman. And this year, 2 of our 4 TBs are RS freshman. And a RS freshman may end up starting on our OL. [\QUOTE]

That's good but that doesn't begin to compare to the youth that ND threw out last year.

First off the critical positions on offense are QB and OL. Those are the positions that take the longest to develop. Sam Young started as a true freshman at ND in 2006 and made the freshman all american team. Of course that had something to do with the fact that ND had 4 other Sr's on the OL to help him.

RB is the easiest position to play a young guy at because they don't have to know much about the offense to function in it. WR is a little harder but nowhere near as hard as QB and OL.



Oh, we'll happily eat it because we know football and understand our program and we see what Weis is building. 2007 was hard but we'll be looking back and laughing about it from 2009 onward.

The only thing Weis is building is his weight. Last year proved Jabba has no clue on how to develop talent.

[Hans Klopek]

[quote=calvin;5001440]No disrespect but I'm always amazed by how people talk in definitive terms about ND yet manage to get most of their details wrong.

ND's starting OL was:

So. Young RT (returning starter)
So. Stewart RG (1st time starter)
5th Yr. Sr. Sullivan C (2 year starter)
So. Olsen LG (1st time starter)
Jr. Turkovich (1st time starter)

Thus 3/5 of ND OL were first time starters who didn't have to beat out anyone experienced because there was no one with more experience ahead of them.



Wrong, Weis had two classes.

2005 Willingham's class - Weis was with NE through the Super Bowl. NLOID was the Wed before the Super Bowl was played. Thus Weis almost couldn't recruit after he was hired on Dec 12th 2004.

2006 - Weis first full class. They were sophomores last year.

2007 - Weis' second class. They were true freshmen last year.

Thus Weis had almost no choice but to have sophomores and freshmen leading his team because Ty left no upperclassmen and he only was about to recruit the bottom two classes in his program.

Another thing that amazes me is how people just skip over the fact that Ty effectively left no upperclassmen at ND. They act as if they's no big deal and Weis should have just managed to skip over what are the core classes of any program.

[quote]What was Quinn's record his first year? And again, if he's already got two QBs with more experience, thus a better "grasp," then why Clausen?[\QUOTE]

ROFLMAO, Brady had a 5-7 record as a true freshman.

But you can't compare that to what surrounded Clausen.

Quinn was surrounded with a cast that included only one underclassman.

RB - Jones/Grant (JR's - both NFL starters)
FB - Powers-Neal (JR)
WR's - Jenkins (SR), McKnight (So)
TE - Godsey (Sr)
OL - LeVoir (Sr), Stevenson (Jr), Giles (Jr), Milligan (5th yr Sr), Molinaro (5th yr Sr)

Quinn had nothing but experienced upperclassmen surrounding him as a Freshman. In contrast Clausen had only 3 players on his offense who had been in the program for more than 2 years!

Big difference.

Also Quinn's 2004 ND team featured a defense which didn't have a single underclassman starting and only had 3 sophomores on the two deep.

To sum it up Bob Davie left Ty a program that had no gaping holes at critical positions. Ty left Weis with a program that many of us said in 2004 the bottom would fall out of in 2007 when the Sr's left.

Pete Carroll said the same thing.

-------

Carroll says he foresaw Irish's fall

USC coach Pete Carroll said he isn't completely surprised the Irish are struggling.

"Three years ago, you could see it coming," Carroll said. "They had all the juniors that played and started, and they had a really good team. Then they were seniors the next year, and they were fortunate to keep a few of those seniors around.

-------

We saw it because we follow our program and know it inside and out. For obviously reasons, outsiders like yourself don't follow our progam and when ND fired Willingham you folks leapt to the easy opinion that 'they must have just realized that he was black, and fired him'.

[quote]And you dare call another coach arrogant?[\QUOTE]

You may want to also take this up with the Washington fans, Stanford fans, and Seattle media who all state that Ty is supremely arrogant.

Hey, look at our roster, Dantonio got playmakers in his first year. In fact, one of our starting WRs was a freshman. And this year, 2 of our 4 TBs are RS freshman. And a RS freshman may end up starting on our OL. [\QUOTE]

That's good but that doesn't begin to compare to the youth that ND threw out last year.

First off the critical positions on offense are QB and OL. Those are the positions that take the longest to develop. Sam Young started as a true freshman at ND in 2006 and made the freshman all american team. Of course that had something to do with the fact that ND had 4 other Sr's on the OL to help him.

RB is the easiest position to play a young guy at because they don't have to know much about the offense to function in it. WR is a little harder but nowhere near as hard as QB and OL.



Oh, we'll happily eat it because we know football and understand our program and we see what Weis is building. 2007 was hard but we'll be looking back and laughing about it from 2009 onward.

I'm sure you'll be right back here after ND beats San Diego State proclaiming Charlie has "turned a corner"

[NMUCats]

The best thing I can say calvin is it's not worth the effort. ND fans have their own perspective on things, and ND haters have another perspective. We look at things with the glass half-full (or are trying to anyways), and they look at it as glass half-empty. It's what any team's fanbase does, and this is the peak of "optimism" season for college football, before reality hits in a few days (or 9 days for ND).

From my experience, the biggest discrepancy between my beliefs for this upcoming year and non-Irish fans beliefs is that I see it as inevitable that the young talent from last year will improve this year. There are times when players peak as juniors or possibly even sophomores, but it's pretty rare that freshman don't improve AT ALL as they move onto sophomores, whether it's mentally, physically, or both. Since the majority of the starters last year were freshman or sophomores, I see the returning starters taking a step forward this year as a whole, hence I see the team improving. I just don't know how big of step that is yet.

[calvin]

[quote=SpartyOnInChitown;5001476]

Originally Posted by calvin

The only thing Weis is building is his weight. Last year proved Jabba has no clue on how to develop talent.

Exactly, and since Weis can't develop talent if Dantonio doesn't beat him this year by a greater margin that last year, we can then discuss how the MSU program is backsliding from the program that Johnelle Smith left.

[Home for the Holidays]

[quote=calvin;5001493]

Originally Posted by Calvin

Exactly, and since Weis can't develop talent if Dantonio doesn't beat him this year by a greater margin that last year, we can then discuss how the MSU program is backsliding from the program that Johnelle Smith left.

Logic Fail, nice try though.

[AASpartan]

Originally Posted by calvin

Exactly, and since Weis can't develop talent if Dantonio doesn't beat him this year by a greater margin that last year, we can then discuss how the MSU program is backsliding from the program that Johnelle Smith left.

You should try explaining how that one makes sense. Especially seeing how JLS never beat Notre Dame in Spartan Stadium.

[mentalstate]

I'm starting to feel sorry for you, Calvin. Just please don't kick your dog.

So, did ND not start 1 senior, 2 juniors and 2 sophs? And were not the two returning players highly-touted? And were not two of the new starters juniors, which should translate to at least a respectable line? And how is a OT helped by his lineman? OT's get TE help, rb/fb help or are left on an island. And oh yeah, you did have a highly-touted TE their to help him. And yet, your line was perhaps THE WORST EVER for a major D! FB program. Again, returning frosh AA, highly-touted center (who calls all the assignments, captain of the line) and highly-touted TE to help block... and has two juniors stepping into starting roles. and this becomes... THE WORST MAJOR D1 LINE EVER. that is due to COACHING.

So Jabba had zero ability to pull even 1 playmaker from the 9 he signed in the frst class, or develop any of the other 6? And how is it that you just skip over his second class, which produced ZERO playmakers? And which Jabba 100% failed to coach up to a winning level. Your selective memory is amazing.

Wow, Ty recruited some really good players for Jabba, too bad Jabba failed with his first to classes to keep it going. 2004-2007. Are you honestly saying that Jabba could do nothing to field a competitive team, or even a team that could score or run the ball on occasion? 3 years, and you expect nothing from him? Maybe if he was .500, you could claim that, but he was 1-9 until the two gimmes, and his loses were PATHETIC and SHAMEFUL. His players regressed and his "Schematic Advantage" (10 Times more arrogant than Ty) became the LAUGHING STOCK of college football.

well, at least he was right about never losing to MSU again... oops, he failed there too.

[calvin]

Originally Posted by AASpartan

You should try explaining how that one makes sense. Especially seeing how JLS never beat Notre Dame in Spartan Stadium.

It's easily explained.

Since according to you folks Weis can't develop talent his team won't be any better.

On the other hand Dantonio can develop players and since he returns more lettermen than ND MSU should increase their margin of victory when the two teams meet in East Lansing.

See the problem with the Weis can't develop talent theory is twofold.

1) It's shortsighted based upon a one year sample with underclassmen.

2) It creates an intellectual box which you can't get out of if ND improves.

I suspect that the fallback posiiton will be 'Weis still can't develop players. ND is just playing an easier schedule'. The problem there is that onfield improvement is easily told. And as it pertains to MSU improvement can be measured in real terms (scoreboard).

[SpartyOnInChitown]

Originally Posted by mentalstate

I'm starting to feel sorry for you, Calvin. Just please don't kick your dog.

So, did ND not start 1 senior, 2 juniors and 2 sophs? And were not the two returning players highly-touted? And were not two of the new starters juniors, which should translate to at least a respectable line? And how is a OT helped by his lineman? OT's get TE help, rb/fb help or are left on an island. And oh yeah, you did have a highly-touted TE their to help him. And yet, your line was perhaps THE WORST EVER for a major D! FB program. Again, returning frosh AA, highly-touted center (who calls all the assignments, captain of the line) and highly-touted TE to help block... and has two juniors stepping into starting roles. and this becomes... THE WORST MAJOR D1 LINE EVER. that is due to COACHING.

So Jabba had zero ability to pull even 1 playmaker from the 9 he signed in the frst class, or develop any of the other 6? And how is it that you just skip over his second class, which produced ZERO playmakers? And which Jabba 100% failed to coach up to a winning level. Your selective memory is amazing.

Wow, Ty recruited some really good players for Jabba, too bad Jabba failed with his first to classes to keep it going. 2004-2007. Are you honestly saying that Jabba could do nothing to field a competitive team, or even a team that could score or run the ball on occasion? 3 years, and you expect nothing from him? Maybe if he was .500, you could claim that, but he was 1-9 until the two gimmes, and his loses were PATHETIC and SHAMEFUL. His players regressed and his "Schematic Advantage" (10 Times more arrogant than Ty) became the LAUGHING STOCK of college football.

well, at least he was right about never losing to MSU again... oops, he failed there too.

[calvin]

Originally Posted by AASpartan

You should try explaining how that one makes sense. Especially seeing how JLS never beat Notre Dame in Spartan Stadium.

It's easily explained.

Since according to you folks Weis can't develop talent his team won't be any better.

On the other hand Dantonio can develop players and since he returns more lettermen MSU should increase their margin of victory when the two teams meet in East Lansing. Any closing of the gap debunks the entire theory.

See the problem with the Weis can't develop talent theory is twofold.

1) It's shortsighted based upon a one year window with underclassmen.

2) It creates an intellectual box which you can't get out of if ND improves.

[calvin]

Originally Posted by AASpartan