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i guess my main point was that the whole argument that he got rid of billups to clear cap space for 2010 just got blown up because they were about the same cost. IMO billups is someone you can build around because of his leadership, defense, passing, and championship experience. i would much rather have him than gordon. i was all for blowing up the pistons team i just think getting rid of him was a huge mistake. get rid of price or hamilton fine i just think gordon is a downgrade compaired to billups.
This idea that Dumars cleared all that cap space for 2010 was created by the fans and the media. What about Dumars' past dealings made it seem likely that he was going to load up to add a superstar to the team?
The Billups trade and the Gordon and Villenueva signings look a heck of a lot like trading Stackhouse for Rip and signing Chauncey. Dumars sold high on an asset and brought in a younger player who might have been a bad fit with his previous team and another player who's bounced around for a while and has a bit of a chip on his shoulder.
If anything, you can blame Dumars for going to the same playbook one too many times rather than "blowing up" some run at a superstar in 2010.
Dumars just gave our #59 pick, Derron Washington, from last year a guaranteed contract. This doesn't make any sense, especially before summer ball, unless he is part of an upcoming trade or Dumars thinks he's amazing. I'm guessing it's the former. We'll see.
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"I think that anyone who consistently criticizes Tom Izzo has likely never accomplished anything of substance."
~msu98
This idea that Dumars cleared all that cap space for 2010 was created by the fans and the media. What about Dumars' past dealings made it seem likely that he was going to load up to add a superstar to the team?
The Billups trade and the Gordon and Villenueva signings look a heck of a lot like trading Stackhouse for Rip and signing Chauncey. Dumars sold high on an asset and brought in a younger player who might have been a bad fit with his previous team and another player who's bounced around for a while and has a bit of a chip on his shoulder.
If anything, you can blame Dumars for going to the same playbook one too many times rather than "blowing up" some run at a superstar in 2010.
I think most of us will be pleased with the work Joe D has done by signing free agents this year, rather than next. Next year's star-studded crop will drive NBA salaries through the roof. Single players will be offered $15 to $20 million per year. The Pistons will have a competitive team with a payroll that allows them the flexibility to sign free agents and make trades.
I think most of us will be pleased with the work Joe D has done by signing free agents this year, rather than next. Next year's star-studded crop will drive NBA salaries through the roof. Single players will be offered $15 to $20 million per year. The Pistons will have a competitive team with a payroll that allows them the flexibility to sign free agents and make trades.
Absolutely. Better to commit $95 mil to both Gordon and Villenueva rather than be forced to commit $75 mil to either one of them. There's too much premier free agent money and not enough premier free agents to suck it all up next year.
they are still going to have enough room to sign someone to the league max next year which they wouldn't have been able to do if they didn't trade billups. by not signing rasheed and trading billups, they get gordon now, and the money to sign anyone willing to come to detroit next season.
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Originally Posted by SpartanInNH
This.
The Pistons used up almost all of the cap room from Sheed and Iverson to sign Gordon and Villanueva.... definitely not going to have room to sign a max contract next year.
the trainwreck started on June 26, 2003. "with the 2nd pick in the 2003 NBA draft. the detroit pistons select Darko Milicic." I remember the draft lottery, and I was so happy when they got the second pick because I figured they would go with a known winner Carmelo. Sure he has had a few troubles since enter the league. The pistons won 1 title, but they are nowhere near another one. They would have had an all-star, bu instead they picked a guy that will never be an all-star, and is also going to his fourth NBA team. June 26, 2003 was my last night being a Pistons fan also.
the trainwreck started on June 26, 2003. "with the 2nd pick in the 2003 NBA draft. the detroit pistons select Darko Milicic." I remember the draft lottery, and I was so happy when they got the second pick because I figured they would go with a known winner Carmelo. Sure he has had a few troubles since enter the league. The pistons won 1 title, but they are nowhere near another one. They would have had an all-star, bu instead they picked a guy that will never be an all-star, and is also going to his fourth NBA team. June 26, 2003 was my last night being a Pistons fan also.
every GM is going to miss on guys but passing on wade and carmello really killed the pistons future. dumars made great trades and free-agent signings several years ago which helped them win the title. billups, sheed, and ben wallace. not only that but he brought in a hall of fame coach. i still would say though his biggest mistake was not getting a good big to help sheed out down low. why didn't they get KG? or get a servicable big like elden campbell (a modern day elden campbell would be someone like perkins or bynum) who they had in the pistons championship run? bad drafts the last several years have killed the pistons.
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"The war drill was designed to get our guys to compete on the boards. We just let them hit each other until somebody dropped. It's a very sophisticated drill."
the trainwreck started on June 26, 2003. "with the 2nd pick in the 2003 NBA draft. the detroit pistons select Darko Milicic." I remember the draft lottery, and I was so happy when they got the second pick because I figured they would go with a known winner Carmelo. Sure he has had a few troubles since enter the league. The pistons won 1 title, but they are nowhere near another one. They would have had an all-star, bu instead they picked a guy that will never be an all-star, and is also going to his fourth NBA team. June 26, 2003 was my last night being a Pistons fan also.
Hindsight makes us all appear so very wise.
Last edited by Otterhound; 07-04-2009 at 01:10 AM.
the trainwreck started on June 26, 2003. "with the 2nd pick in the 2003 NBA draft. the detroit pistons select Darko Milicic." I remember the draft lottery, and I was so happy when they got the second pick because I figured they would go with a known winner Carmelo. Sure he has had a few troubles since enter the league. The pistons won 1 title, but they are nowhere near another one. They would have had an all-star, bu instead they picked a guy that will never be an all-star, and is also going to his fourth NBA team. June 26, 2003 was my last night being a Pistons fan also.
You knew right then that Darko would be a bust? Congrats. What NBA team do you work for?
pass on wade? you do know he was a reach at that pick, and miami didn't even know where or how they'd play him, as he isn't a pg, sg or sf. they moved him everywhere in summer league, trying to find him a spot and justify the pick.
yes, terrible moves by Joe D led the pistons to a record-tying six straight ECF, 2 world championship series, one ring and another playoff appearance during this down year. Kill him now
(and to think, we could have been like Denver with Melo and not done jack that whole time, until he finally had his break-out year and was able to choke in the WCF!!!!! Damn you Joe D!!!! )
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Mars Needs Women. And Hates Notre Dame.
pass on wade? you do know he was a reach at that pick, and miami didn't even know where or how they'd play him, as he isn't a pg, sg or sf. they moved him everywhere in summer league, trying to find him a spot and justify the pick.
yes, terrible moves by Joe D led the pistons to a record-tying six straight ECF, 2 world championship series, one ring and another playoff appearance during this down year. Kill him now
(and to think, we could have been like Denver with Melo and not done jack that whole time, until he finally had his break-out year and was able to choke in the WCF!!!!! Damn you Joe D!!!! )
i don't think the pistons made it to 6 straight conference finals because of his draft picks
like i said good trades and free agent signings but terrible drafts. yes and carmello pretty much sucked until this year and did nothing in the playoffs
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"The war drill was designed to get our guys to compete on the boards. We just let them hit each other until somebody dropped. It's a very sophisticated drill."
wade a reach? how about darko? give me a break. fine don't take wade then. how about bosh or carmello then? just admit it: he blew that draft. sometimes you pick the best available player regardless of if you can "find" a place to pay him especially if you don't have any significant holes on your team (which they didn't at the time).
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"The war drill was designed to get our guys to compete on the boards. We just let them hit each other until somebody dropped. It's a very sophisticated drill."
Describing Joe Dumars tenure as a "trainwreck" is akin to describing IGGcitable's career as a message board poster as "stable".
Look...Dumars may well have made some draft picks, signings, etc that you may or may not agree with, but the bottom line is the guy (whether it be by luck or by pure genius) rose the franchise from the dead and the payoff came in the form of 1 Championship, 6 straight ECFs, and a few other playoff appearances. There are about 29 other NBA franchises (LA, SA, and Boston included) that would be satisfied with that run over a 6 year period.
Does it mean that Joe can sit back and rest on his laurels? Does it mean he has a lifetime Tom Izzo pass? Does it mean he shouldn't have gotten rid of Sheed 2/3 years ago and broken up the core sooner? Hell no. But to call it a trainwreck? Please. Get Net Nanny or something so your little brother can't post under your username anymore.
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One thought he was invincible the other thought he could fly.
Even after these 2 moves, they are 4 million under the cap. Now, they have Rip with a 8 or 9 million a year deal. I think it is fairly obvious that Rip will be moved. He is a very productive player still, and should have value either for draft picks or players. Remember, Utah still has 3 PFs, Clippers have 3 PFs and a center they don't seem to want. This team will still be in great shape to make offers next year, but I think they will do it sooner than that. I think Rip or Tayshaun will be going to Utah for Boozer or Milsap in some kind of package deal. It is perfect for both teams, we need a big, they need a SG. We would then have a lineup that looked something like this
PG Stuckey
SG Gordon
SF Tayshaun
PF Villinueava
C Kaman/Milsap/Boozer....whoever they get
Backups are Afflalo, Maxiel, Bynum, Daye, Brown, and hopefully McDyess
Not championship caliber. But look at the ages. VERY young. A lot of room to improve, and a lot of ammo to lure a possible superstar FA. This is not a trainwreck. Dumars tried for a long time to keep that core together, but you can only do that for so long.
Describing Joe Dumars tenure as a "trainwreck" is akin to describing IGGcitable's career as a message board poster as "stable".
Look...Dumars may well have made some draft picks, signings, etc that you may or may not agree with, but the bottom line is the guy (whether it be by luck or by pure genius) rose the franchise from the dead and the payoff came in the form of 1 Championship, 6 straight ECFs, and a few other playoff appearances. There are about 29 other NBA franchises (LA, SA, and Boston included) that would be satisfied with that run over a 6 year period.
Does it mean that Joe can sit back and rest on his laurels? Does it mean he has a lifetime Tom Izzo pass? Does it mean he shouldn't have gotten rid of Sheed 2/3 years ago and broken up the core sooner? Hell no. But to call it a trainwreck? Please. Get Net Nanny or something so your little brother can't post under your username anymore.
yep face it: it is a trainwreck. i totally agree with you that it was a great run and he was the one that put it together so he should get credit for that. all i am pointing out is he really has made a series of bad moves which has brought them to this point. if you disagree with me: you have a right.
explain this to me though: why would you trade away your franchise player, your best player and leader who led you to 6 straight conference finals??? doesn't make sense at all. also the coaching moves. get rid of flip fine but hire someone in his place with no head coaching experience??? like a said a series of bad moves. his moves in the last year have made no sense to me. i hope i am wrong and everything pans out. i saw that he interviewed johnson today. i think sheed is long gone though.
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"The war drill was designed to get our guys to compete on the boards. We just let them hit each other until somebody dropped. It's a very sophisticated drill."
yep face it: it is a trainwreck. i totally agree with you that it was a great run and he was the one that put it together so he should get credit for that. all i am pointing out is he really has made a series of bad moves which has brought them to this point. if you disagree with me: you have a right.
explain this to me though: why would you trade away your franchise player, your best player and leader who led you to 6 straight conference finals??? doesn't make sense at all. also the coaching moves. get rid of flip fine but hire someone in his place with no head coaching experience??? like a said a series of bad moves. his moves in the last year have made no sense to me. i hope i am wrong and everything pans out. i saw that he interviewed johnson today. i think sheed is long gone though.
Probably because the goal isn't to be the Eastern Conference runner-up each season?
Can we please stop pretending that the Chauncey Billups we saw in Denver was the exact same player that would have been in Detroit had the trade never happened? He needed a change of scenery and wound up in the perfect place. He had far more trade value than any other player on the roster. It was a good move at the time and remains a good move now.
yep face it: it is a trainwreck. i totally agree with you that it was a great run and he was the one that put it together so he should get credit for that. all i am pointing out is he really has made a series of bad moves which has brought them to this point. if you disagree with me: you have a right.
explain this to me though: why would you trade away your franchise player, your best player and leader who led you to 6 straight conference finals??? doesn't make sense at all. also the coaching moves. get rid of flip fine but hire someone in his place with no head coaching experience??? like a said a series of bad moves. his moves in the last year have made no sense to me. i hope i am wrong and everything pans out. i saw that he interviewed johnson today. i think sheed is long gone though.
If anything, Joe is guilty for holding on to the belief for too long that his roster was good enough to win a Championship - thus, the reason why he canned Flip and went to Curry (Sheed and some of the other guys had lost respect for Flip). I don't think you will find many who will disagree on that point. But to call his tenure a "trainwreck" is insane.
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One thought he was invincible the other thought he could fly.
i don't think the pistons made it to 6 straight conference finals because of his draft picks
like i said good trades and free agent signings but terrible drafts. yes and carmello pretty much sucked until this year and did nothing in the playoffs
Compare his drafts to other teams in the league. He ranks in the top 10. He hasn't been great, but he has been in the top 3rd. Everybody has misses.
Okur, a 2nd round pick, became an all-star and helped us win a title. Tay, a late 1st round pick, was an Olympian, nearly an All-Star a few years and helped us win a title. Stuckey will likely see multiple All-Stars and nobody drafted after him has been nearly as good. Amir is way better than players drafted at the end of the 2nd round. Maxiel and Afflalo are as good as the avg. player picked in the late 1st.
He hasn't had a bad pick since Darko, which was 6 years ago.
All this Joe D. criticism reminds me of all the Izzo criticism before this last final four run. You have two guys who have proven that they are at or near the top of their profession, yet you have idiots, who don't know what they are talking about, bashing them.
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"I think that anyone who consistently criticizes Tom Izzo has likely never accomplished anything of substance."
~msu98
Last edited by Keepfightingforit; 07-04-2009 at 01:58 AM.
Probably because the goal isn't to be the Eastern Conference runner-up each season?
Can we please stop pretending that the Chauncey Billups we saw in Denver was the exact same player that would have been in Detroit had the trade never happened? He needed a change of scenery and wound up in the perfect place. He had far more trade value than any other player on the roster. It was a good move at the time and remains a good move now.
i agree ECF runner up it isn't the goal. i also agree that they needed to change the team. the thing is though billups wasn't one holding them back. lets examine why they lost the last few years. in every case i would argue it wasn't guard play. the celtics were too much for them down low and also billups was playing hurt. the year before king james abused prince and co in the lane and down low. the year before that d wade and shaq abused the pistons. year before that sheed left horry wide open in the corner. in any case i would argue that billups was a better point guard than any of the PG on those teams. he was/ is an all star every year and a coach on the floor. it is like izzo always says: " a player coached team is better than a coach coached team". do you think phil jackson did a lot of coaching in the finals this year? no kobe pretty much coached the team. billups is that kind of leader. he was never appreciated in detroit and now you see what he can do on another team. if you look at his points per game in denver they actually went down this year from last year at the pistons. the one constant thing with him is winning. it is no accident the pistons won a ton of games before he got traded and then pretty much stunk afterwords.
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"The war drill was designed to get our guys to compete on the boards. We just let them hit each other until somebody dropped. It's a very sophisticated drill."
Compare his drafts to other teams in the league. He ranks in the top 10. He hasn't been great, but he has been in the top 3rd. Everybody has misses.
Okur, a 2nd round pick, became an all-star and helped us win a title. Tay, a late 1st round pick, was an Olympian, nearly an All-Star a few years and helped us win a title. Stuckey will likely see multiple All-Stars and nobody drafted after him has been nearly as good. Amir is way better than players drafted at the end of the 2nd round. Maxiel and Afflalo are as good as the avg. player picked in the late 1st.
He hasn't had a bad pick since Darko, which was 6 years ago.
All this Joe D. criticism reminds me of all the Izzo criticism before this last final four run. You have two guys who have proven that they are at or near the top of their profession, yet you have idiots, who don't know what they are talking about, bashing them.
okur helped them win the title? what are you talking about? did he get any minutes on that team? like i said dumars did a great job putting together the championship team. but seriously prince was his only good draft pick out of the bunch. no other players that he drafted played or helped them win the title or is going to anytime soon. nearly an all star? with all of those draft picks it is pretty sad that only one of them is an all star and it was after he left the pistons. also i wouldn't be bragging about a top ten draft. that means that 9 other teams had better drafts. it kind of proves my point. the thing about the nba though is that you can build a team through free agency and trades which he was able to do.
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"The war drill was designed to get our guys to compete on the boards. We just let them hit each other until somebody dropped. It's a very sophisticated drill."
hey xwing, why don't you pull up that same chart for every other team in the league? Then compare.
Also, who was Darko's coach? And what was that coach's philosophy when it came to rookies and young players? And what did that coach do in the Olympics with that strategy?
Also, the Piston's main overseas scout at the time was and is a legend in the scouting game. What did he say about Darko? And that guy has/had 10 million times the NBA knowledge and cred you will ever have.
Again, Darko was a 7'1 16 year old with 3 point range, a complete post game and pg passing skills. He killed in workouts. And Det had a vet team that was set at EVERY position. So, do you bring in the young kid with the sick skills and unmatcheable height and length, or the cocky kid who told you he wanted to be the man and was yet another 3 in a league full of great 3s but very, very few great 5s?
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Mars Needs Women. And Hates Notre Dame.
hey xwing, why don't you pull up that same chart for every other team in the league? Then compare.
Also, who was Darko's coach? And what was that coach's philosophy when it came to rookies and young players? And what did that coach do in the Olympics with that strategy?
Also, the Piston's main overseas scout at the time was and is a legend in the scouting game. What did he say about Darko? And that guy has/had 10 million times the NBA knowledge and cred you will ever have.
Again, Darko was a 7'1 16 year old with 3 point range, a complete post game and pg passing skills. He killed in workouts. And Det had a vet team that was set at EVERY position. So, do you bring in the young kid with the sick skills and unmatcheable height and length, or the cocky kid who told you he wanted to be the man and was yet another 3 in a league full of great 3s but very, very few great 5s?
okur helped them win the title? what are you talking about? did he get any minutes on that team? like i said dumars did a great job putting together the championship team. but seriously prince was his only good draft pick out of the bunch. no other players that he drafted played or helped them win the title or is going to anytime soon. nearly an all star? with all of those draft picks it is pretty sad that only one of them is an all star and it was after he left the pistons. also i wouldn't be bragging about a top ten draft. that means that 9 other teams had better drafts. it kind of proves my point. the thing about the nba though is that you can build a team through free agency and trades which he was able to do.
So his worst quality is drafting and he is still top 10. He likely is even higher. Just look at the drafts of teams since Dumars has been drafting. I just looked at some of the best teams recently. In that time the Mavs have only drafted 1 good player, Josh Howard, then a bunch of terrible players. The Lakers have had one really good pick, Andrew Bynum, then a few decent picks like Walton, Vujajacic and Von Wafer. The Suns have 1 All-Star in Amare, one good player in Barbosa and a bunch of nobodies. The Jazz have one All-Star in Derron Williams, an exellent pick in Millsap, a good pick in Ronnie Brewer (#14), a few very avg. players then I think 3-4 first round picks that are not in the league anymore. The Rockets have Yao Ming , then their next best draft pick is probably Aaron Brooks or Luis Scola. The best organizatin in basketball has been the Spurs. They have one All-Star in Tony Parker, then their next best pick is Goerge Hill.
So, xwing, you think it's sad that Joe D. has only drafted one All-Star, yet during that time the other 6 best organizations have only drafted a total of 5 All-Stars. I'll project that Stuckey, Millsap and Bynum will make at least one All-Star game in their careers, yet I don't see any other All-Stars coming from those teams' draft picks. Utah has probably done the best, yet you could argue that Joe D. drafted better than all those top teams.
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"I think that anyone who consistently criticizes Tom Izzo has likely never accomplished anything of substance."
~msu98
So his worst quality is drafting and he is still top 10. He likely is even higher. Just look at the drafts of teams since Dumars has been drafting. I just looked at some of the best teams recently. In that time the Mavs have only drafted 1 good player, Josh Howard, then a bunch of terrible players. The Lakers have had one really good pick, Andrew Bynum, then a few decent picks like Walton, Vujajacic and Von Wafer. The Suns have 1 All-Star in Amare, one good player in Barbosa and a bunch of nobodies. The Jazz have one All-Star in Derron Williams, an exellent pick in Millsap, a good pick in Ronnie Brewer (#14), a few very avg. players then I think 3-4 first round picks that are not in the league anymore. The Rockets have Yao Ming , then their next best draft pick is probably Aaron Brooks or Luis Scola. The best organizatin in basketball has been the Spurs. They have one All-Star in Tony Parker, then their next best pick is Goerge Hill.
So, xwing, you think it's sad that Joe D. has only drafted one All-Star, yet during that time the other 6 best organizations have only drafted a total of 5 All-Stars. I'll project that Stuckey, Millsap and Bynum will make at least one All-Star game in their careers, yet I don't see any other All-Stars coming from those teams' draft picks. Utah has probably done the best, yet you could argue that Joe D. drafted better than all those top teams.
well the spurs drafted duncan and the lakers drafted kobe. it wasn't in the last 10 years but they are HOF players and are all stars. when they had high picks they didn't blow it. i can't think of any 17 year old players drafted from europe who fall into that category. the other teams you mentioned are not top teams. at least not in last several years. the suns, rockets and jazz haven't had championship success or even made it to the finals in a long time.
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"The war drill was designed to get our guys to compete on the boards. We just let them hit each other until somebody dropped. It's a very sophisticated drill."
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The Pistons used up almost all of the cap room from Sheed and Iverson to sign Gordon and Villanueva.... definitely not going to have room to sign a max contract next year.
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