The Joe Dumars Train Wreck

[SD Spartan]

Originally Posted by conleyet

Probably because the goal isn't to be the Eastern Conference runner-up each season?

Can we please stop pretending that the Chauncey Billups we saw in Denver was the exact same player that would have been in Detroit had the trade never happened? He needed a change of scenery and wound up in the perfect place. He had far more trade value than any other player on the roster. It was a good move at the time and remains a good move now.

Sorry, Joe blew the Billups deal. There is just no way to spin it otherwise. It wasn't a change of scenery, it was a change of teammates.....the same thing that could have occured in Detroit. Billups made Joe look silly by moving a top 5 pg........you just cant get that back. You can build around a PG.

He had more trade value than anyone else because he is by far the best and most valuable player...hello.

Calling this a trainwreck is not right but just because Joe has made some great moves in the past doesn't mean he got that one right.

[AUAlum06]

Originally Posted by xwing

well the spurs drafted duncan and the lakers drafted kobe. it wasn't in the last 10 years but they are HOF players and are all stars. when they had high picks they didn't blow it. i can't think of any 17 year old players drafted from europe who fall into that category. the other teams you mentioned are not top teams. at least not in last several years. the suns, rockets and jazz haven't had championship success or even made it to the finals in a long time.

The Lakers did not draft Kobe, they got him for Vlade from the Hornets.

[xwing]

Originally Posted by AUAlum06

The Lakers did not draft Kobe, they got him for Vlade from the Hornets.

was it a draft day trade? i don't think this negates the point.

[kubrickfan]

My guess is Joe D is not done. For one, it makes almost zero since to sign Gordon to that kind of money unless he's gonna be a starter. Does that mean either Rip or Stuckey are coming off the bench? My guess and this is just a guess on my part is the Pistons are going to try and trade for Bosh. I would guess most likely Rip and Prince and possibly another player.

I agree that Joe D.'s draft record is not good, however Joe's best moves in his GM career were when the Pistons were down and he made moves to get Rip, Wallace and Rasheed and sign Billups. I'm not as harsh on Joe right now because as I said I don't think he's done. I will say everyone talks about the 2010 class but let's be honest the two superstars of that class... Wade and LeBron are not going to come to Detroit or at best it would have been highly unlikely, so who were they going to get? I'm assuming that Joe is trying to get younger with players like Stuckey and Gordon, however he still needs that fairly young big man to get this team in the right direction and my guess is that he'll try and get Bosh. Whether or not he can, I don't know. Just my two cents.

I will say though that IF they don't get another piece eventually and Gordon and Villanueva are it, than yes it is a poor job by Joe D and waste of valuable cap space.

[SD Spartan]

Originally Posted by xwing

every GM is going to miss on guys but passing on wade and carmello really killed the pistons future. dumars made great trades and free-agent signings several years ago which helped them win the title. billups, sheed, and ben wallace. not only that but he brought in a hall of fame coach. i still would say though his biggest mistake was not getting a good big to help sheed out down low. why didn't they get KG? or get a servicable big like elden campbell (a modern day elden campbell would be someone like perkins or bynum) who they had in the pistons championship run? bad drafts the last several years have killed the pistons.

IMO, the NBA draft is vastly over rated. FA and trades are how champions are made in the NBA. By the time your draft picks actual produce they will cost too much to keep.

This is why the draft is all about potential because it is basically home run or nothing. Servicable role players are a dime a dozen, you dont need to draft them.

Joe blew the Darko pick, but if you're going to slam him for that judgement call then you have to give him all the credit for the moves that did pan out. And he made a lot of real good judgement calls.

[AUAlum06]

Originally Posted by xwing

was it a draft day trade? i don't think this negates the point.

yes it does very much so.

[kubrickfan]

Originally Posted by SD Spartan

IMO, the NBA draft is vastly over rated. FA and trades are how champions are made in the NBA. By the time your draft picks actual produce they will cost too much to keep.

This is why the draft is all about potential because it is basically home run or nothing. Servicable role players are a dime a dozen, you dont need to draft them.

Joe blew the Darko pick, but if you're going to slam him for that judgement call then you have to give him all the credit for the moves that did pan out. And he made a lot of real good judgement calls.

I agree. I think the other thing is that while Joe was the one that blew the pick, a lot of GMs would have probably made the same mistake. If I remember right there were quite a few draft gurus, etc. that had Darko right near the top of the board of that draft. Joe wasn't the only one who overrated him, but ultimately he is the one who will have to live that pick down.

[SD Spartan]

Originally Posted by kubrickfan

I agree. I think the other thing is that while Joe was the one that blew the pick, a lot of GMs would have probably made the same mistake. If I remember right there were quite a few draft gurus, etc. that had Darko right near the top of the board of that draft. Joe wasn't the only one who overrated him, but ultimately he is the one who will have to live that pick down.

Right, it happens all the time to EVERY GM. It's a judgment call...some work out some don't. People can't have it both ways: either you think it is total luck and you cant blame the GM or give him too much credit OR it is subjective judgement and the GM should get all the glory and all the critcism. If you're going to praise him for the good then you have to hang it on him when it doesn't work out.

I just dont get people who refuse to acknowledge some of the bad moves (Darko, Billups). it's OK, it doesn't diminish Joe D at all, He has made a ton of great moves as well.

[TripleGreen]

Do you think xwing can prove that he knows less than about the NBA than he already has in this thread? I think he has it in him.

Calling one of the top 5 GM's in basketball the captain of a trainwreck is an impressively dense and misguided leap of logic. The man's record speaks for itself...or at least it should.

[aroz13]

The Darko pick has been discussed to death. They were in a position to take a real chance. Their roster was basically set for a championship run. Darko should have been Toni Kukoc at worst, and his potential was off the charts. It didn't work out, you move on. Think Ricky Rubio, who was almost the next Darko until he slid a few spots.

The bottom line is, Joe drafted Darko. He sucked bad. But, he still got a ring. With all of the rest of Joe's picks and moves. He has made some good non-moves too, like not matching Chicago's offer for Ben Wallace. And with what they have on their roster now, they can be a major player next year, or make a huge trade this year and be just fine.

[xwing]

Originally Posted by TripleGreen

Do you think xwing can prove that he knows less than about the NBA than he already has in this thread? I think he has it in him.

Calling one of the top 5 GM's in basketball the captain of a trainwreck is an impressively dense and misguided leap of logic. The man's record speaks for itself...or at least it should.

ok smart guy. you defend the billups trade and his last coach hire. i never said that joe was a bad GM. read my threads. what i think he did to this team though IMO is trainwrecked it. they had a great core and he destroyed it. i guess i should try to change the headline to better reflect what i mean. billups was the pistons core. i gave joe plenty of credit for building the pistons to what they were. you guys are starting to sound like brian hoyer defenders. just because you are a fan of a team doesn't mean you have to be blind to the truth.

[conleyet]

Originally Posted by xwing

ok smart guy. you defend the billups trade and his last coach hire. i never said that joe was a bad GM. read my threads. what i think he did to this team though IMO is trainwrecked it. they had a great core and he destroyed it. i guess i should try to change the headline to better reflect what i mean. billups was the pistons core. i gave joe plenty of credit for building the pistons to what they were. you guys are starting to sound like brian hoyer defenders. just because you are a fan of a team doesn't mean you have to be blind to the truth.

I suppose it would have been a good idea to strip the roster down and rebuild around a 32-year-old point guard with a recent history of either getting injured or disappearing come playoff time, right?

[mentalstate]

It should be noted that with the Chauncey trade, Chauncey played on a heck of a team that featured none other than Melo... and couldn't get to the Championship game, let alone win it. With Melo.

[TripleGreen]

Originally Posted by xwing

ok smart guy. you defend the billups trade and his last coach hire. i never said that joe was a bad GM. read my threads. what i think he did to this team though IMO is trainwrecked it. they had a great core and he destroyed it. i guess i should try to change the headline to better reflect what i mean. billups was the pistons core. i gave joe plenty of credit for building the pistons to what they were. you guys are starting to sound like brian hoyer defenders. just because you are a fan of a team doesn't mean you have to be blind to the truth.

Billups trade. That team's roster had run it's course. It was time to rebuild and to do it on the fly without going the lottery route he had to unload a lot of salary by the end of the season and the aging but still effective Chauncey Billups was the only tradeable asset that would've convinced the Nuggets to unload the massive expiring contract that was Allen Iverson. For teams that want to rebuild, expiring deals like AI's are an extremely desirable commodity and Denver was aware of that. They weren't going to give him up for cheap.

They HAD a great coare. Past tense. So did the Bad Boys. Great cores don't last forever. Sheed, Big Ben, Rip and Chauncey were getting old and stale fast. It was obvious that they had lost the spark, drive and chemistry they once had. You have to stop living in the past. The Pistons are in rebuild mode and newsflash...they have yet to miss the playoffs. That's not something that happens with any kind of frequency. It's not easy to do. What's easy to do is sell off everything and try to suck bad enough in order to get a top pick in the draft. But in order to achieve a rebuild on the fly without missing the playoffs...you have to make some touch decision and trade and let go of guys while they still have value and face it, you're going to go through some less than desirable seasons like the the one we had last year.

At least wait until he makes all of his moves this offseason before you continue overreacting and etching his name on a tombstone. If he can acquire a legit starting center (granted it's a big if but it's an if that everyone and their brother knows he's putting all of his effort into achieving)...but if that happens, next year's team will be significantly better than last year's disappointing run. That happens and your "trainwreck" will immediately look like a team once again on the right track and on the rise. Even without it though, they're still an improving team. It'll just take another offseason to get to where the team needs to be.

Championship teams aren't built in a year.

[Lewwy]

Originally Posted by xwing

ok smart guy. you defend the billups trade and his last coach hire. i never said that joe was a bad GM. read my threads. what i think he did to this team though IMO is trainwrecked it. they had a great core and he destroyed it. i guess i should try to change the headline to better reflect what i mean. billups was the pistons core. i gave joe plenty of credit for building the pistons to what they were. you guys are starting to sound like brian hoyer defenders. just because you are a fan of a team doesn't mean you have to be blind to the truth.

I think you are living in the past man, probably mad because your Billups jersey you use to wear all the time, is now sitting in your closet collecting dust.

This great core you speak of was done, they were not going to win anything else. Not sure if you have seen the last two seasons but it looked like a team that lost its desire to win. How you let Lebron score 24 straight points on you or however much it was is unexcusable. You can not just blame Prince either. The help side defense was atrocious. The team the last two years looked like a team that felt going to the Eastern Conference Finals or the Nba finals was just going to be handed to them. They felt they could be down in a series and "turn it up" a notch whenever they wanted to. Not to mention they became whiny lil babies and Rasheed turned into the same ole Rasheed, with no motivation in the tank and makin bonehead decisions at crucial moments in games.

I think Joe D knew that this group has reached its prime as a whole and something had to be done to change it up. You are normally not going to be able to trade Billups and his huge contract for anything but an expiring contract. He pulled the trigger on the trade figuring it had a 50/50 shot at panning out. With a different coach I think that team would have been more better off. I also think it is no secret that Joe D has always liked A.I. The trade did not work out well and Curry was the not the man for the job. I did not like the Flip hiring either.

The team is going to have a new look get over it. Saying Joe D is a trainwreck is funny because I can not remember the last team a team that has made it to that many ECF in a row. It is laughable really that some of you are harsh on the man, when we have one bad season out of like the last 6. Even with all of his "mistakes" we have still been a contender.

The team has a new look, can not really call judgement until another season has been played. The Pistons are not done, something might happen this summer or before the trade deadline next year. A big man is coming to Detroit either way.

[conleyet]

Originally Posted by mentalstate

It should be noted that with the Chauncey trade, Chauncey played on a heck of a team that featured none other than Melo... and couldn't get to the Championship game, let alone win it. With Melo.

Well, that proves everything!

[xwing]

Originally Posted by conleyet

I suppose it would have been a good idea to strip the roster down and rebuild around a 32-year-old point guard with a recent history of either getting injured or disappearing come playoff time, right?

yeah billups sucks right? he is a top 5 point guard in the leage right now. the nuggets had little playoff experience. they were runner up to the champs and took them to 6 games. i think they will be back. the pistons (who won like 7 of their first ten games with billups) were well under .500. without him. At 32 years old he has a few good years left IMO.

billups is a winner. all he does is win and all everyone does is trash him. beng gordon is not a winner IMO. he is a great scorer but doesn't help his team win. billups does the little things that don't show up in a box score.

[xwing]

Originally Posted by TripleGreen

Billups trade. That team's roster had run it's course. It was time to rebuild and to do it on the fly without going the lottery route he had to unload a lot of salary by the end of the season and the aging but still effective Chauncey Billups was the only tradeable asset that would've convinced the Nuggets to unload the massive expiring contract that was Allen Iverson. For teams that want to rebuild, expiring deals like AI's are an extremely desirable commodity and Denver was aware of that. They weren't going to give him up for cheap.

They HAD a great coare. Past tense. So did the Bad Boys. Great cores don't last forever. Sheed, Big Ben, Rip and Chauncey were getting old and stale fast. It was obvious that they had lost the spark, drive and chemistry they once had. You have to stop living in the past. The Pistons are in rebuild mode and newsflash...they have yet to miss the playoffs. That's not something that happens with any kind of frequency. It's not easy to do. What's easy to do is sell off everything and try to suck bad enough in order to get a top pick in the draft. But in order to achieve a rebuild on the fly without missing the playoffs...you have to make some touch decision and trade and let go of guys while they still have value and face it, you're going to go through some less than desirable seasons like the the one we had last year.

At least wait until he makes all of his moves this offseason before you continue overreacting and etching his name on a tombstone. If he can acquire a legit starting center (granted it's a big if but it's an if that everyone and their brother knows he's putting all of his effort into achieving)...but if that happens, next year's team will be significantly better than last year's disappointing run. That happens and your "trainwreck" will immediately look like a team once again on the right track and on the rise. Even without it though, they're still an improving team. It'll just take another offseason to get to where the team needs to be.

Championship teams aren't built in a year.

yep he traded away a top 5 point guard. like i said i agree that he needed to do something. trading billups was the one guy i wouldn't have traded. he was their best player for crying out loud! like i said he wasn't the problem. rebuilding doesn't mean you trade away your best player! he could have traded away other players.

[xwing]

now that sheed is gone... i wonder how many games they will win next year. i know sheed has an attitude but there is no denying he was arguably their best player (him and billups were neck and neck IMO). i know he isn't the same player he once was but he was the only player they had which could score in the post at will and was also a great defender. i think with a good coach (like avery johsnon) sheed could have contributed. it seems like a shame for him to leave and get nothing of value out of him as well. why didn't dumars deal him last year? would no one have taken him? it seems like boston could have used him after KG got hurt and they could have gotten something out of him.