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Well, I'm glad they didn't specifically mention Mexico for disgracing the match.
Javier Aguirre deserves a lot of blame for what happened, but our players behaved very well.
Castro and Torrado kept trying to calm down the fans behind the bench, and Guillermo Ochoa offered to escort the Panama player that was sent off.
Also, our players didn't retaliate after some very hard fouls from the Panamanians (including Blas Perez hitting Guillermo Ochoa when the ball wasn't even in play).
Aguirre is an idiot, but our players were actually on top behavior.
1. Yes Panama is a dirty team that will fake an injury or five to try to keep a draw.
2. (I'd be curious to hear more about the disdain Mexicans have for Mexican-Americans),
3. but the Mexican federation might want to do more to encourage sportsmanship as letting that reputation grow doesn't serve their interests, or that of the sport.
4. I'd expect Aguirre to receive a deserved multi-game suspension,
1. Well, that and the fact that they kept hitting our players when the ball was away from them. Guillermo Ochoa was hit by Blas Perez when the ball was out of the field, Johnny Magallon had his balls stepped on by Gun after a slide tackle, Giovanni Dos Santos was kicked about 20 times, etc. The referee just had no control over what was happening on the field.
2. It isn't a disdain to all Mexican-Americans, but yes to a large part of that population. Most of the guys who end up going to the US illegally or to work in crappy farm jobs or the likes are uneducated, non-productive people. It's people who quit school or never attended (despite Mexico having many public schools) and left their country because they weren't successful here. 110 million others stay here, but they abandoned their country. Then they somehow "forget" Spanish and never really learn English so they end up speaking in that "Spanglish" crap that is considered very very low-class in Mexico. They listen to Reggaeton crap and say words like "Ese" and "Vato" in normal conversations. In my many experiences with Mexican-Americans, I've found that they tend to be loud, uneducated, and somewhat vulgar. Yes I might be sounding very elitist here, but it's a sentiment shared by many people in Mexico.
3. Sadly, the Mexican Federation has no control over what fans do in stadiums in the US. In Mexico there are always lots of policemen with shields guarding the opposing team players during corner kicks, etc. Also the players come onto the field through a huge inflatable tunnel. But our federation can't control what CONCACAF and the US soccer federation do in matches played on your land.
4. I hope he's suspended for at least 3 or 4 games, but I don't think it will get much longer than that. It was stupid, but it wasn't really a hard hit at all and he didn't really seem to be trying to hurt the guy. I just saw the play this morning and it was very bizarre... he elevated his leg but didn't really swing at the Panamanian player or trip him. It's almost like he was trying to stop him with his leg, which is moronic no matter how you look at it. I hope he gets a decent fine from the Mexican Federation too.
A lot of people think Aguirre was just trying to stop the ball and Phillips misunderstood.
From the comments of people who were at the game, the only true hero was Ochoa, who apparently sustained a red-card worth tackle. But Phillips and Aguirre don't come off nearly so bad as Perez. Apparently what was viewed on the field looked a bit different than what was seen on TV.
The real bad guys seem to be #1 the refs, #2 the "fans of Mexico" (how can you tell if they're authentic Mexicans or the Americanized variety?), #3 Reliant Field security (apparently there was none!?) and #4 Perez. Here's an eyewitness account -
"I actually just returned from the game and am very disappointed in the Mexican fans. There were at least five major fights in the stands with mexican fans beating up the small 5% panama fans. The writer of this article definately was not at the game because each time Phillips tried to leave the field he was pelted with 50-100 bottles, cups, ice and everything else. The TV broadcast did not actually show the amount of stuff he had to go through to try and get off the field. No way I would leave the field either in that case. And also the writer said that Blas Perez wasted 5 minutes. That is far from the case he was getting carried off in s STRETCHER and got pelted with multitudes of debris many of which hit him in the head."
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Ogre, why should I be afraid? For in one life one death is absolutely certain. What's more, I have in my belly a thunderbolt for weapon. If you eat me, you will not be able to digest that weapon. - Prince Five-Weapons
Javier Aguirre deserves a lot of blame for what happened, but our players behaved very well.
Castro and Torrado kept trying to calm down the fans behind the bench, and Guillermo Ochoa offered to escort the Panama player that was sent off.
Also, our players didn't retaliate after some very hard fouls from the Panamanians (including Blas Perez hitting Guillermo Ochoa when the ball wasn't even in play).
Aguirre is an idiot, but our players were actually on top behavior.
Most of the eyewitness accounts are leaning toward Aguirre going for the ball. Maybe the TV angle was different. Does CONCACAF do a video review before they mete out the punishment? Aguirre's situation might also be mitigated by the really poor refereeing. I'm a little sympathetic to him, given there seemed to have been no control from either the refs or stadium security.
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Ogre, why should I be afraid? For in one life one death is absolutely certain. What's more, I have in my belly a thunderbolt for weapon. If you eat me, you will not be able to digest that weapon. - Prince Five-Weapons
FWIW, that eyewitness account is from a Panama fan on the website I linked.
Blas Perez was the dirtiest player on the field and yes, he tackled Ochoa when the ball was not in play. The ref didn't even see it and didn't even call a foul.
Then Perez got fouled very very lightly and he pretended he broke his leg or something. He was getting carried off the stretcher and looked like there was no problem with him.
The replay also showed Perez never got hit by anything. Something came neat him and then he pretended to fall off the stretcher and be hurt (to waste more time). But as soon as the game started again, he jumped up and went right into the field (illegally, too, as the ref never told him he could come back in).
Ball was on the ground, Aguirre had his leg up. That excuse doesn't fly. From the looks of it, it doesn't appear like he was trying to hurt Phillips. I'm not exactly sure what he was doing, and from his comments, I'm not sure he does either. Perhaps trying to keep Phillips from the ball as he'd likely pull some delay crap.
But like it goes on the field, he wasn't going for the ball, had his studs up, and made contact. That's a suspension......
Obviously, it was a bad move and probably deserves a suspension, but it sure looks to me like it was an instinctive reaction, he seemed to be looking at the ball, (which seemed to be headed out of bounds when looked at from both angles), not Phillips, and it didn't seem intentional. One-game suspension for dumbness.
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Ogre, why should I be afraid? For in one life one death is absolutely certain. What's more, I have in my belly a thunderbolt for weapon. If you eat me, you will not be able to digest that weapon. - Prince Five-Weapons
Most of the eyewitness accounts are leaning toward Aguirre going for the ball. Maybe the TV angle was different. Does CONCACAF do a video review before they mete out the punishment? Aguirre's situation might also be mitigated by the really poor refereeing. I'm a little sympathetic to him, given there seemed to have been no control from either the refs or stadium security.
I don't think he was going for the ball. His leg was up too high.
But he also didn't swing at the Panama player or trip him, and the contact was very light. He definitely wasn't trying to hurt him either.
I think he was trying to stop Phillips because he didn't stop when the ref whistled and said the ball was out. He was trying to waste time and Aguirre tried to stop him... why he did it with his foot? No idea. It was stupid. And he deserves a 2 or 3-game suspension for it.
What's worse is that it happened when Mexico was playing well for the first time in months. I'm very upset at Aguirre...
Perez should have clearly not have had a red for either of the two situations, IMHO. The refs and Reliant stadium security do seem to come off the worst when you look at the comments, not just on this site, but others. I think the Aguirre-Phillips thing got overblown in the heat of the moment and building frustration with the way the game was being called.
Oops, self-correction. I had a moment of temporary forgetfulness, as you have instructed me reds are not called "south of the border", and since this was Mexico-Panama, we El Nortes should respect that interpretation.
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Ogre, why should I be afraid? For in one life one death is absolutely certain. What's more, I have in my belly a thunderbolt for weapon. If you eat me, you will not be able to digest that weapon. - Prince Five-Weapons
Aguirre was apologetic after the game. Given the impact the incident had on the game as a whole, my guess is a 3-game suspension is coming. He might miss the US qualifier next month.....
I also think a 3-game suspension is coming.
That means Mexico has to make it into the semis if they want Aguirre to be there vs. USA.
I though Barrera and Dos Santos were really clicking last night when that happened, so it may be a good sign that two very young offensive players were playing so well in a tough environment against a team that was just there to injure you and waste time.
Oops, self-correction. I had a moment of temporary forgetfulness, as you have instructed me reds are not called "south of the border", and since this was Mexico-Panama, we El Nortes should respect that interpretation.
Elbowing a goalie on the back when the ball is not even in play is a red here too
That means Mexico has to make it into the semis if they want Aguirre to be there vs. USA.
I though Barrera and Dos Santos were really clicking last night when that happened, so it may be a good sign that two very young offensive players were playing so well in a tough environment against a team that was just there to injure you and waste time.
I only saw about 15 minutes, but they looked pretty good considering Panama was packing it in and fouling like crazy.
Last weekend, I was with a bunch of furriners, and happened to get in a discussion about soccer with two fans of Mexico (two Mexican soccer moms). Their theory, which they pushed rather aggressively with a good dose of disgust, is that most of the current Mexican team are prima donna princes and spend way too much time with the girls and way too little focused on their craft, which is the source of why they don't play well together and why the team is so up and down. One of them seems to be rather close to the players in some fashion. Both were from Mexico City.
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Ogre, why should I be afraid? For in one life one death is absolutely certain. What's more, I have in my belly a thunderbolt for weapon. If you eat me, you will not be able to digest that weapon. - Prince Five-Weapons
Elbowing a goalie on the back when the ball is not even in play is a red here too
But steamrolling a player in the box maintaining position while the ball is a half-mile away in the air is not even an infraction? Hmmm... interesting. I'll have to ponder the strange and mysterious art of south-of-the-border officiating.
__________________
Ogre, why should I be afraid? For in one life one death is absolutely certain. What's more, I have in my belly a thunderbolt for weapon. If you eat me, you will not be able to digest that weapon. - Prince Five-Weapons
I only saw about 15 minutes, but they looked pretty good considering Panama was packing it in and fouling like crazy.
Last weekend, I was with a bunch of furriners, and happened to get in a discussion about soccer with two fans of Mexico (two Mexican soccer moms). Their theory, which they pushed rather aggressively with a good dose of disgust, is that most of the current Mexican team are prima donna princes and spend way too much time with the girls and way too little focused on their craft, which is the source of why they don't play well together and why the team is so up and down. One of them seems to be rather close to the players in some fashion. Both were from Mexico City.
Well, Guillermo Ochoa and Giovani Dos Santos are both dating hot young Mexican singers, so they often get criticized for being in public events, etc. instead of focusing on their soccer careers. I really have no problem with it as long as they play well, which Dos Santos did last night (not so much Ochoa as the goal was partly his fault).
And yes, I know this post is worthless without pics, so here you go:
1. Well, that and the fact that they kept hitting our players when the ball was away from them. Guillermo Ochoa was hit by Blas Perez when the ball was out of the field, Johnny Magallon had his balls stepped on by Gun after a slide tackle, Giovanni Dos Santos was kicked about 20 times, etc. The referee just had no control over what was happening on the field.
2. It isn't a disdain to all Mexican-Americans, but yes to a large part of that population. Most of the guys who end up going to the US illegally or to work in crappy farm jobs or the likes are uneducated, non-productive people. It's people who quit school or never attended (despite Mexico having many public schools) and left their country because they weren't successful here. 110 million others stay here, but they abandoned their country. Then they somehow "forget" Spanish and never really learn English so they end up speaking in that "Spanglish" crap that is considered very very low-class in Mexico. They listen to Reggaeton crap and say words like "Ese" and "Vato" in normal conversations. In my many experiences with Mexican-Americans, I've found that they tend to be loud, uneducated, and somewhat vulgar. Yes I might be sounding very elitist here, but it's a sentiment shared by many people in Mexico.
3. Sadly, the Mexican Federation has no control over what fans do in stadiums in the US. In Mexico there are always lots of policemen with shields guarding the opposing team players during corner kicks, etc. Also the players come onto the field through a huge inflatable tunnel. But our federation can't control what CONCACAF AND THE U.S. SOCCER FEDERATION DO IN MATCHES ON YOUR LAND (emphasis mine).
4. I hope he's suspended for at least 3 or 4 games, but I don't think it will get much longer than that. It was stupid, but it wasn't really a hard hit at all and he didn't really seem to be trying to hurt the guy. I just saw the play this morning and it was very bizarre... he elevated his leg but didn't really swing at the Panamanian player or trip him. It's almost like he was trying to stop him with his leg, which is moronic no matter how you look at it. I hope he gets a decent fine from the Mexican Federation too.
Let me just say, it was surprising to hear a Mexican say things about Mexican-Americans, that had a non-ethnic American said them, would be called racist. I am also surprised that Mexicans in general would feel this way since one of the main sources of income in Mexico is money sent to relatives from immigrants to the U.S.
On the other hand, most of my frustration with Mexican fans comes from games attended in the U.S. It may well be that true Mexicans from Mexico such as Arfabe are much better behaved (as your post suggests).
With that said, you can't blame U.S. soccer for what happened last night, or most of Mexico's other games in the U.S. U.S. soccer has nothing to do with the gold cup, and doesn't even sell tickets to U.S. Gold Cup matches on their website. I believe that the same is true for Mexican "friendlies" in the U.S. (against non-U.S. foes such as the recent game against Venezuela). Blame Relient stadium, perhaps, and certainly blame the corrupt CONCACAF, but U.S. soccer has nothing to do with Mexico fans being out of control. The world cup qualifier U.S. Mexico games, where the U.S. is the home team, are spirited but well-policed, with no danger to players on the pitch.
In summary, your frustrations with Mexican refereeing and Central American rough play should be directed at Concacaf, not the U.S. All the U.S. has done is go partway on the tough road from minnow to giant, all with classy fans (as Heathens said). What Mexican Americans do is not our concern. They have rejected their adopted nation's team in favor of Mexico, and U.S. soccer isn't responsisble for their actions.
Last edited by bertie wooster; 07-10-2009 at 03:30 PM.
Well, Guillermo Ochoa and Giovani Dos Santos are both dating hot young Mexican singers, so they often get criticized for being in public events, etc. instead of focusing on their soccer careers. I really have no problem with it as long as they play well, which Dos Santos did last night (not so much Ochoa as the goal was partly his fault).
And yes, I know this post is worthless without pics, so here you go:
Ochoa's girl
Giovani's girl
Yummm. I think I just got a major infraction for my reaction.
Hey, arfabe, can you explain this strange cultural phenomenon, that when you view a random Mexican TV show, the impression one gets is that 100% of all Mexican women are hot young models, and 100% of Mexican men look like 60-year old versions of Cuahtemoc Blanco with a huge belly?
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Ogre, why should I be afraid? For in one life one death is absolutely certain. What's more, I have in my belly a thunderbolt for weapon. If you eat me, you will not be able to digest that weapon. - Prince Five-Weapons
Given the fact that all of the top Concacaf squads have sent B-Teams to the Gold Cup, and with the U.S. letting the best of their B-Team's players (adu and feilhaber) prioritize training camp ahead of the Gold Cup, does anyone think that it is time for the Gold Cup to move to a once every four years tournament (like the Euro tournament).
Pros: the top teams in the region could focus on the tournament, and the prestige would likely go up. World Cup qualifying wouldn't compete with the regional championship, and fixture congestion would lesson.
Cons: the smaller nations such as Guadaloupe wouldn't get as many chances to compete in a meaningful, regional tournament.
Let me just say, it was surprising to hear a Mexican say things about Mexican-Americans, that had a non-ethnic American said them, would be called racist.
I am also surprised that Mexicans in general would feel this way since one of the main sources of income in Mexico is money sent to relatives from immigrants to the U.S.
Ever see that crappy Selena movie with J-Lo? Where the dad says something along the lines of "We're not American enough for the Americans and we're not Mexican enough for the Mexicans." Well, it's completely true. They have their own little culture, and it is not something either Americans or Mexicans identify with.
Also, while remittances are indeed a big source of income for Mexico, it is a lot more significant in other parts of the country than the one I live in. The poorer states in the middle of the country tend to be the ones that are big when it comes to remittances.
Also, a lot of that money comes from people doing skilled labor. I don't really have anything against educated, smart people going somewhere legally and working and then sending money back home. My disdain is more against those who went around the system and are uneducated and have adopted a culture that is really not American or Mexican. It's a lot of those people that you find at the soccer games in California and Texas.
But I don't want to send this thread into Wells, so I'll stop there...
Given the fact that all of the top Concacaf squads have sent B-Teams to the Gold Cup, and with the U.S. letting the best of their B-Team's players (adu and feilhaber) prioritize training camp ahead of the Gold Cup, does anyone think that it is time for the Gold Cup to move to a once every four years tournament (like the Euro tournament).
Pros: the top teams in the region could focus on the tournament, and the prestige would likely go up. World Cup qualifying wouldn't compete with the regional championship, and fixture congestion would lesson.
Cons: the smaller nations such as Guadaloupe wouldn't get as many chances to compete in a meaningful, regional tournament.
Does anyone have any thoughts?
They really should just eliminate CONCACAF and have us play with CONMEBOL. Sure, that would lead to the US and Mexico not being locks to attend WC's, but it would raise the level of our teams and allow us to avoid playing the Panama's and Guatemala's of the world so much.
We'd actually go on the field knowing that the other team wants to play soccer too.
Yummm. I think I just got a major infraction for my reaction.
Hey, arfabe, can you explain this strange cultural phenomenon, that when you view a random Mexican TV show, the impression one gets is that 100% of all Mexican women are hot young models, and 100% of Mexican men look like 60-year old versions of Cuahtemoc Blanco with a huge belly?
This is so true.
I really wish you could get English subtitles, i find myself watching games with Spanish speaking announcers because they are so much more exciting then their English counterparts on espn. it would also be a nice addition to rosetta stone in learning the language.
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Anyone who is capable of getting himself elected president should on no account be allowed to do the job. FZ
Yummm. I think I just got a major infraction for my reaction.
Hey, arfabe, can you explain this strange cultural phenomenon, that when you view a random Mexican TV show, the impression one gets is that 100% of all Mexican women are hot young models, and 100% of Mexican men look like 60-year old versions of Cuahtemoc Blanco with a huge belly?
That's what you see in the Univision shows (the Mexican-American shows). I've noticed it's usually a scantily clad hot woman with some big fat guy next to her.
In Mexico you mostly just see attractive people, both males and females. Just like in American tv, they grab the more perfect-looking people and put them on tv.
For example, this was the biggest soap opera hit in the past decade (yes, Ochoa's girlfriend was in it):
Will ESPN be showing any of these games on their networks in the US? I doubt it, as they would be going up against their full slate of college football games for the first half of the season.
Will ESPN be showing any of these games on their networks in the US? I doubt it, as they would be going up against their full slate of college football games for the first half of the season.
Nope. ESPN only has rights to broadcast games in Britain. Despite their financial problems, Setanta still holds the rights to the US broadcasts at least through this season, maybe through 2011, as well. So nothing changes from last year for US viewers.
__________________ We shall fight on the beaches. We shall fight on the landing grounds. We shall fight in the fields, and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills. We shall never surrender!
I really wish you could get English subtitles, i find myself watching games with Spanish speaking announcers because they are so much more exciting then their English counterparts on espn. it would also be a nice addition to rosetta stone in learning the language.
Univision is working on providing english language closed captioning. I think they've already rolled it out, at least in some test phases, but I'm not 100% positive.
Quote:
Originally Posted by arfabe16
That's what you see in the Univision shows (the Mexican-American shows). I've noticed it's usually a scantily clad hot woman with some big fat guy next to her.
If you're talking about the Telenovelas, those are primarily Mexican, but the ones on Unvision were the same ones shown in Mexico. Honestly, I've never minded when my mother in law is watching those.
Most of the shows Univision produces themselves are done in Miami, and I wouldn't call them Mexican-American shows, as many of the top hosts are from elsewhere (Don Francisco, Fernando Fiore, Cristina, etc.). But they still bring out the hotties. It's always amazed me how it can be Saturday night at 8:30 and they've got girls dancing around in thongs on a family variety show (Sabado Gigante).
I remember they used to have a show on Saturday or Sunday afternoons that consisted 100% of people dancing on the beach in their skimpy outfits.
__________________ We shall fight on the beaches. We shall fight on the landing grounds. We shall fight in the fields, and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills. We shall never surrender!
The real problem with the Panama/Mexico game isn't so much the game it was the fact that the two biggest teams of ******* met at the same time.
Let's face it, and Arf would agree, if things are going Mexico's way everything is just fine. However, if things are not going their way, well, here come the ******* that will hack and cheat to get even, or get whatever it is that goes through their collective heads when they go on a nutter.
Now, it only makes things worse when anyone, I mean anyone plays Panama and they somehow are in the game. It becomes the most pathetic game of faked injuries and time wasting on the planet. Don't get me wrong, I do think the Mexicans had a right to get pissed, but like I said, they can't stay composed to save their lives and that is part of what made this even worse.
What should have happened was the for the ref to insist players get up or move off the field. If they did not get up in short order, yellow card, if someone talked to him about the yellow card, then yellow card that idiot as well. If by the time you get done writing in your book he isn't up, well, double yellow and you can just get carted right off to the dressing room. **** it, make those ******* play with 8 if that is what it takes. Same goes for Mexico. You get in the refs face, red card/3games. The precident has been set.
Part of being a professional is dealing with the worst situations like this. Niether side showed they have a professional in the ranks. Nobody more than Aguirre.
Sorry Arf, but your team is in shambles at every level. I have said it before. The first thing the Mexican side needs to do is find the right character of men to cap. This will solve a mountain of problems.
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Quote:
"I guess if a person never quit when the going got tough, they wouldn't have anything to regret for the rest of their life. Well, good luck to you Peter. I am sure this decision won't haunt you for the rest of your life."
The real problem with the Panama/Mexico game isn't so much the game it was the fact that the two biggest teams of ******* met at the same time.
Let's face it, and Arf would agree, if things are going Mexico's way everything is just fine. However, if things are not going their way, well, here come the ******* that will hack and cheat to get even, or get whatever it is that goes through their collective heads when they go on a nutter.
Now, it only makes things worse when anyone, I mean anyone plays Panama and they somehow are in the game. It becomes the most pathetic game of faked injuries and time wasting on the planet. Don't get me wrong, I do think the Mexicans had a right to get pissed, but like I said, they can't stay composed to save their lives and that is part of what made this even worse.
What should have happened was the for the ref to insist players get up or move off the field. If they did not get up in short order, yellow card, if someone talked to him about the yellow card, then yellow card that idiot as well. If by the time you get done writing in your book he isn't up, well, double yellow and you can just get carted right off to the dressing room. **** it, make those ******* play with 8 if that is what it takes. Same goes for Mexico. You get in the refs face, red card/3games. The precident has been set.
Part of being a professional is dealing with the worst situations like this. Niether side showed they have a professional in the ranks. Nobody more than Aguirre.
Sorry Arf, but your team is in shambles at every level. I have said it before. The first thing the Mexican side needs to do is find the right character of men to cap. This will solve a mountain of problems.
I thought our players acted fine. They didn't fall into Panama's game of dirty hits and wasting time. Martinez and Torrado did complain to the ref a bit too much, but that was expected with the way he was handling the game and the Panamanians playing dirty.
Aguirre made a huge mistake and will pay for it, and assistant Manuel Vidrio made a mistake too by getting in Phillips's face.
But I think you are being extremely unfair to the Mexican players. They behaved well last night, and people like Guillermo Ochoa and Jose Antonio Castro did more to control the crowd than did the authorities.
You're crazy if you think someone like Landon Donovan wouldn't have been furious at the ref if he had been getting hacked like Dos Santos was.
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They have rejected their adopted nation's team in favor of Mexico, and U.S. soccer isn't responsisble for their actions.
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