Why is it that....

[General Grant]

Originally Posted by BennyGFlecktones

We had one of the worst ground games in the Big Ten. A weak Big Ten. A lot of that falls on the o-line.

More concerning than that, Hoyer was constantly being assassinated/on the verge of being assassinated. Like I said, we really do need to hope that these guys that we are all hyping form the '09 class will pan out. If not, this program will not move forward anytime soon.

BennyG. The facts do not back up your statement. Here are Ringer's stats:

Ringer, Javon 390 1637 125.9 (ypg) 4.2 (average carry) 7 (hundred yard games) 64 (longest carry) 22 (touchdowns)

If you can explain to me how that equals one of the worst ground games in the Big Ten than please go ahead.

The team almost averaged 350 yds of total offense a game. Which is good considering our offensive philosophy. This year we are averaging 28 points a game. Which is nothing to be ashamed of. Of course, we could be NW and throw the ball all over the field and lose a **** ton of games but we don't. Myself being a former o-lineman, they take a little longer to develop because believe it or not, it is the most skilled position on the field. Especially when it comes to your landmarks, footwork, leverage, balance, line calls, hand placement, etc.. (i could go on if you want me to). The '09' class will take at least a year to develop. If you have questions I would be more than happy to answer them for you.

[froot loops]

In 2008 MSU was ranked 10th in the Big Ten in yards per carry.

[General Grant]

Originally Posted by SpartanRocky

You care way more about stirring the pot on the message board than you do about the team winning.

You threw the JUCO argument out AGAINST JLS 3 years ago, now you're demanding Coach D do it, even though JUCOs are NEVER a long term solution and they have about a 50% success rate.

You want to build a program at a non-traditional powerhouse? Do it the way Coach D is. For all the talk about talent, look at Butch Davis at North Carolina. They have less of a winning history than MSU does and Davis brought in several top 20 classes. Guess what?? That talent is still young and they're taking their lumps, especially in the trenches.

We rip on ND fans for saying this, but we are really being hurt by JLS's lack of OL/DL recruiting in 2005 and 2006. Coupled with the fact that 2 of MD's first 4 OL brought in (Dumpford and Ray) are not contributing and you have very few experienced OL. That kind of problem does not fix itself overnight. We're lucky DJ Young transferred; he's about as good as you could expect a first year JUCO to play and he's a D-1 transfer.

If you want to talk football sometime, I'd be glad to. Your schtick is lame; you take whatever side will cause the most controvery and then sum it up with something about the "blowers". You're a lawyer, so at least attempt to be creative and maybe contribute more than mindless pessismism and worthless rants.

Took the words right of my mouth. 100% correct because of the offense JLS was running. Don't let the rushing stats confuse you. Those guys were mostly position blocking because of the result of the nickel defense packages the opposing teams were in. Plus, they also had to respect Stanton because of his ability to run the football. That offense was a lot of smoke and mirrors. You could you look at the stats of a game and could have thought we knocked the piss out of them running the ball. Well, we really didn't because of the system. Our guys were not knocking them off the ball. When it worked it was great. Unfortunately when it didn't it looked like a massacre and could not sustain here at MSU. What I respect about Penn State's success is that they have been able to stay somewhat physical with their run blocking. Up front they will knock you off the ball. PSU coaches got that. JLS did not. You are seeing the result today with the performance of what makes and sustains your success as a program-the OL and DL.

[General Grant]

Originally Posted by froot loops

In 2008 MSU was ranked 10th in the Big Ten in yards per carry.

This stat is deceptive because of the offenses that are now being run in the Big Ten (with the exception of a couple-Iowa and Ohio State). These teams spread you out and then run the ball to take advantage of the defenses the other teams are in.

Plus, you are going to see that when you have one back take 90% of the carries. You think Andre Anderson was ready to do more last year?

Again, you don't have the success we have had the last couple of years without decent oline play. It has not been great, and it will get better. My point is that people think this stuff will happen overnight. I am sorry Orlando ****ing Pace does not walk through the door very often people.

[SGT_HULKA]

Originally Posted by General Grant

You didn't happen to be at the MN game last weekend did you? Other than that, you are completely wrong in everything you said.

The Kelly thing completely pisses me off. He has a goddamned suitcase by his door waiting for the next school to call. If you don't think he would have left us high and dry after a couple of years than you are completely dishonest. He is now reaping the benefits of the hard work that was done before him by Coach Dantonio laying the foundation. I have former teammates with siblings and relatives that were played down there and we talk about this all the time. That program was in disarray and Coach Dantonio righted the ship. Please, gain some perspective before you fire off from the hip.

So in "your world", leaving a school after making back to back BCS appearances ="High & Dry"? Talk about a Man of Genius.

[froot loops]

Getting 3.3 YPA is not good no matter what the opposition in the conference is doing. Ringer was good, the line was OK, but their rushing offense on the whole was subpar.

[MichState04]

Originally Posted by SGT_HULKA

So in "your world", leaving a school after making back to back BCS appearances ="High & Dry"? Talk about a Man of Genius.

If you have long term success goals for MSU, yes.

A combination of coaching turnover and bad hiring decisions have put the MSU program where it is today.

[General Grant]

Originally Posted by SGT_HULKA

So in "your world", leaving a school after making back to back BCS appearances ="High & Dry"? Talk about a Man of Genius.

So you would not mind if he did this to MSU if he was here (considering that he made to BCS bowls)? I believe your tone might be a little different having your coaches name mentioned for every attractive job that might be out there. I went through that personally with Saban. Trust me, sitting in the Clara Bell Conference center announcing to us that he was leaving for LSU was one of the worst feelings you could have as a player. Especially when the threat of the assistants leaving with him is almost greater (I loved Coach Ruel).

[SpartanRocky]

Originally Posted by General Grant

Took the words right of my mouth. 100% correct because of the offense JLS was running. Don't let the rushing stats confuse you. Those guys were mostly position blocking because of the result of the nickel defense packages the opposing teams were in. Plus, they also had to respect Stanton because of his ability to run the football. That offense was a lot of smoke and mirrors. You could you look at the stats of a game and could have thought we knocked the piss out of them running the ball. Well, we really didn't because of the system. Our guys were not knocking them off the ball. When it worked it was great. Unfortunately when it didn't it looked like a massacre and could not sustain here at MSU. What I respect about Penn State's success is that they have been able to stay somewhat physical with their run blocking. Up front they will knock you off the ball. PSU coaches got that. JLS did not. You are seeing the result today with the performance of what makes and sustains your success as a program-the OL and DL.

The soonest OL can contribute are their RS soph year. A few exceptions apply, but look at who that leaves us with to help out on the OL

5th year Srs

Nitchman
Cironi
Moss

4th Year Jrs.
Deane
Young
Stipek

RS Sophs
McGaha
Foreman

RS Frosh
Ruhland
Deyo
McDonald
Heuter

True Frosh

Barrent
Klatt
Reynolds
Conway

You need at least 3 OL/class to make it work out. The 4th year Jrs are deceptive because Deane and Stipek have both moved from the DL. In reality, the earliest we could expect a solid OL is next year but 2011 is probably the more realistic goal, when this year's true frosh are RS sophs.

Unlike other positions on the field, there are no short-cuts with OL (DL develops a little faster, as evidenced by Worthy's contribution this year). MD had laid a foundation with his first class, but losing Dumpford to homesickness and Ray to cancer meant that we have a bit of a hole to dig ourselves out from. That is not MD's fault but it is the reality of the situation. The fact we can have even decent pass protection at the moments is a credit to Roushar, especially since the older OL had several years of JLS 2-point stance training.

[Larry Harrisons Lotion]

Originally Posted by SpartanRocky

The soonest OL can contribute are their RS soph year. A few exceptions apply, but look at who that leaves us with to help out on the OL

5th year Srs

Nitchman
Cironi
Moss

4th Year Jrs.
Deane
Young
Stipek

RS Sophs
McGaha
Foreman

RS Frosh
Ruhland
Deyo
McDonald
Heuter

True Frosh

Barrent
Klatt
Reynolds
Conway

You need at least 3 OL/class to make it work out. The 4th year Jrs are deceptive because Deane and Stipek have both moved from the DL. In reality, the earliest we could expect a solid OL is next year but 2011 is probably the more realistic goal, when this year's true frosh are RS sophs.

Unlike other positions on the field, there are no short-cuts with OL (DL develops a little faster, as evidenced by Worthy's contribution this year). MD had laid a foundation with his first class, but losing Dumpford to homesickness and Ray to cancer meant that we have a bit of a hole to dig ourselves out from. That is not MD's fault but it is the reality of the situation. The fact we can have even decent pass protection at the moments is a credit to Roushar, especially since the older OL had several years of JLS 2-point stance training.

Thank you JLS.

[TravelinMan]

Originally Posted by General Grant

So you would not mind if he did this to MSU if he was here (considering that he made to BCS bowls)? I believe your tone might be a little different having your coaches name mentioned for every attractive job that might be out there. I went through that personally with Saban. Trust me, sitting in the Clara Bell Conference center announcing to us that he was leaving for LSU was one of the worst feelings you could have as a player. Especially when the threat of the assistants leaving with him is almost greater (I loved Coach Ruel).

After going to a couple of BCS bowls?!? That would be a nice problem to have. There are current MSU students that weren't ALIVE when the team last made a Rose Bowl.

Seriously - win first and let's worry about coaches leaving after that.

[SGT_HULKA]

Originally Posted by General Grant

So you would not mind if he did this to MSU if he was here (considering that he made to BCS bowls)? I believe your tone might be a little different having your coaches name mentioned for every attractive job that might be out there. I went through that personally with Saban. Trust me, sitting in the Clara Bell Conference center announcing to us that he was leaving for LSU was one of the worst feelings you could have as a player. Especially when the threat of the assistants leaving with him is almost greater (I loved Coach Ruel).

In today's reality, there are not going to be any JoePa's or Bobby Bowden's who build a program and stay around for decades. The business has become way too cutthroat and driven by $$$$. Most coaches, if they are smart, have their bags packed because they know they are not being paid upwards of $2 mil per to build character and win moral victories. Its a business. D1 football for the most part is a well financed Vocational Program that borders on Semi Pro. That is the harsh reality. How many MSU recruits believe they will get a shot at the NFL? I bet most of them believe that, even if such possibilities are remote.

Coaches in demand can and do negotiate long term contracts so that in the event things head south, or an administration loses patience, they have financial security. Its like that in any business. Guys who have success selling widgets will be lured by competitors to jump ship with offers of more money, perks, whatever. I would rather have a guy come in with a sense of urgency, build up a winner, and head for greener pastures (if he does) and leave the program in better shape than he found it. Do you think Cincy fans will be pissed if BK leaves, but leaves a foundation of 2 straight BCS bids? The sane ones won't.

[OPSpartan]

Originally Posted by SGT_HULKA

In today's reality, there are not going to be any JoePa's or Bobby Bowden's who build a program and stay around for decades. The business has become way too cutthroat and driven by $$$$. Most coaches, if they are smart, have their bags packed because they know they are not being paid upwards of $2 mil per to build character and win moral victories. Its a business. D1 football for the most part is a well financed Vocational Program that borders on Semi Pro. That is the harsh reality. How many MSU recruits believe they will get a shot at the NFL? I bet most of them believe that, even if such possibilities are remote.

Coaches in demand can and do negotiate long term contracts so that in the event things head south, or an administration loses patience, they have financial security. Its like that in any business. Guys who have success selling widgets will be lured by competitors to jump ship with offers of more money, perks, whatever. I would rather have a guy come in with a sense of urgency, build up a winner, and head for greener pastures (if he does) and leave the program in better shape than he found it. Do you think Cincy fans will be pissed if BK leaves, but leaves a foundation of 2 straight BCS bids? The sane ones won't.

I'm sure you'll suck his **** at the next stop so you got that going for you!!

[SpartanRocky]

Originally Posted by SGT_HULKA

In today's reality, there are not going to be any JoePa's or Bobby Bowden's who build a program and stay around for decades. The business has become way too cutthroat and driven by $$$$. Most coaches, if they are smart, have their bags packed because they know they are not being paid upwards of $2 mil per to build character and win moral victories. Its a business. D1 football for the most part is a well financed Vocational Program that borders on Semi Pro. That is the harsh reality. How many MSU recruits believe they will get a shot at the NFL? I bet most of them believe that, even if such possibilities are remote.

Coaches in demand can and do negotiate long term contracts so that in the event things head south, or an administration loses patience, they have financial security. Its like that in any business. Guys who have success selling widgets will be lured by competitors to jump ship with offers of more money, perks, whatever. I would rather have a guy come in with a sense of urgency, build up a winner, and head for greener pastures (if he does) and leave the program in better shape than he found it. Do you think Cincy fans will be pissed if BK leaves, but leaves a foundation of 2 straight BCS bids? The sane ones won't.

Honest question here; what's your solution?

The problem is that you're trading long term stability for a few good years. That's what happened with Saban. Here we are, a full decade later, STILL picking up the pieces. If you have a BCS bowl game every 5 years, but then your coach jumps ship, you basically have to find the next stud guy to get the program back to that level . . .then rebuild rebuild rebuild.

I'm not so desperate for a winner that I'll sacrifice our program's future. I'd rather take the lumps now, get them out of the way, and have stability for the next 10 years, rather than changing coaches again and again.

[SpartyHardy]

Originally Posted by SpartanRocky

Honest question here; what's your solution?

The problem is that you're trading long term stability for a few good years. That's what happened with Saban. Here we are, a full decade later, STILL picking up the pieces. If you have a BCS bowl game every 5 years, but then your coach jumps ship, you basically have to find the next stud guy to get the program back to that level . . .then rebuild rebuild rebuild.

I'm not so desperate for a winner that I'll sacrifice our program's future. I'd rather take the lumps now, get them out of the way, and have stability for the next 10 years, rather than changing coaches again and again.

Well Rocky...you just joined the sunshine blower/accept mediocrity club here. Welcome aboard!

[TorontoSpartan87]

Originally Posted by SpartanRocky

You care way more about stirring the pot on the message board than you do about the team winning.

You threw the JUCO argument out AGAINST JLS 3 years ago, now you're demanding Coach D do it, even though JUCOs are NEVER a long term solution and they have about a 50% success rate.

You want to build a program at a non-traditional powerhouse? Do it the way Coach D is. For all the talk about talent, look at Butch Davis at North Carolina. They have less of a winning history than MSU does and Davis brought in several top 20 classes. Guess what?? That talent is still young and they're taking their lumps, especially in the trenches.

We rip on ND fans for saying this, but we are really being hurt by JLS's lack of OL/DL recruiting in 2005 and 2006. Coupled with the fact that 2 of MD's first 4 OL brought in (Dumpford and Ray) are not contributing and you have very few experienced OL. That kind of problem does not fix itself overnight. We're lucky DJ Young transferred; he's about as good as you could expect a first year JUCO to play and he's a D-1 transfer.

If you want to talk football sometime, I'd be glad to. Your schtick is lame; you take whatever side will cause the most controvery and then sum it up with something about the "blowers". You're a lawyer, so at least attempt to be creative and maybe contribute more than mindless pessismism and worthless rants.

The most truthful truth ever posted in the history of tRCMB.

[SpartanRocky]

Originally Posted by SpartyHardy

Well Rocky...you just joined the sunshine blower/accept mediocrity club here. Welcome aboard!

What do you mean "Just Joined"

[SpartyHardy]

Originally Posted by SpartanRocky

What do you mean "Just Joined"

I hear ya Rock. The thing is, if you are going to be a die hard Spartan football fan, you just have to have unfailing hope above all. The negativity that has permeated this school's football program for decades is almost impossible to combat. Only winning consistently will eventually overcome it, and there is where hope must continue on. To continually expect the worst in every game and with every game on the line situation, is giving in to defeatism. This has always been, and will probably always continue to be, the greatest challenge that an MSU football coach will have to overcome from year to year.

[Handbanana]

Originally Posted by SpartanRocky

The soonest OL can contribute are their RS soph year. A few exceptions apply, but look at who that leaves us with to help out on the OL

5th year Srs

Nitchman - low 3 star
Cironi - low 3 star
Moss - low 3 star

4th Year Jrs.
Deane - 2 star DT
Young - low 3 star
Stipek - 2 star DE

RS Sophs
McGaha - low 3 star
Foreman - 2 star

RS Frosh
Ruhland - high 3 star
Deyo - 2 star
McDonald - low 3 star
Heuter - 2 star

True Frosh

Barrent - high 4 star
Klatt - 4 star
Reynolds - 3 star
Conway - 3 star

You need at least 3 OL/class to make it work out. The 4th year Jrs are deceptive because Deane and Stipek have both moved from the DL. In reality, the earliest we could expect a solid OL is next year but 2011 is probably the more realistic goal, when this year's true frosh are RS sophs.

Unlike other positions on the field, there are no short-cuts with OL (DL develops a little faster, as evidenced by Worthy's contribution this year). MD had laid a foundation with his first class, but losing Dumpford to homesickness and Ray to cancer meant that we have a bit of a hole to dig ourselves out from. That is not MD's fault but it is the reality of the situation. The fact we can have even decent pass protection at the moments is a credit to Roushar, especially since the older OL had several years of JLS 2-point stance training.

Arthur Ray- high 3 star

2010 Commits
Jackson- high 3 star
Denis - low 3 star

2010 Possible
Schofner- high 3 star with 15 BCS offers
Franklin - 3 star

We are definitely looking at 2011 as the starting point for a "dominant line." Hopefully, another year in the program will help some of our less heralded upperclassmen play beyond their stars for next year. Plus, I would be willing to bet that has an eye for talent more so than slappy did (ie Foreman).

[DantonIzzo]

This actually turned into a really good thread with a lot of level-headed responses. Doesn't surprise me that the usual suspects abandoned it when the flames were extinguished.

[MichState04]

Originally Posted by DantonIzzo

This actually turned into a really good thread with a lot of level-headed responses. Doesn't surprise me that the usual suspects abandoned it when the flames were distinguished.

*extinguished?

But I agree.

edit: NM, I see what you were saying.

[DantonIzzo]

Originally Posted by MichState04

*extinguished?

But I agree.

edit: NM, I see what you were saying.

Yeah -- good grief. "Distinguished"? Man, I'm tired.

[MichState04]

Originally Posted by DantonIzzo

Yeah -- good grief. "Distinguished"? Man, I'm tired.

I am proud to stand by this team during these tough times. I think it tests a fanbase. I bookmarked a few of these tools' posts and I look forward to bumping them in the future. The program overall is on it's way up, I just hope this team throws us a bone and finishes this season strong.

[DantonIzzo]

Originally Posted by MichState04

I am proud to stand by this team during these tough times. I think it tests a fanbase. I bookmarked a few of these tools' posts and I look forward to bumping them in the future. The program overall is on it's way up, I just hope this team throws us a bone and finishes this season strong.

Couldn't agree more on all fronts.

I remember thinking the same thing throughout the '07 season. Could be a carbon-copy finish to it, too.

[SpartyHardy]

Originally Posted by MichState04

I am proud to stand by this team during these tough times. I think it tests a fanbase. I bookmarked a few of these tools' posts and I look forward to bumping them in the future. The program overall is on it's way up, I just hope this team throws us a bone and finishes this season strong.

Couldn't agree with you more.