What causes you to have/lose faith in MSU football?

[DantonIzzo]

A lot of fans seem to have dropped back into the self-loathing, woe-is-us mentality that has become a repetitive pattern at MSU -- especially over the course of the last decade. You know the drill: Here we go again. This, despite the fact that has put together back-to-back Top-25 recruiting classes here for 2009 and '10, carries an overall record of 20-15 and a Big Ten record of 12-10 (with league wins in 11 of his last 16 games after a 1-5 start in '07), has overseen major renovations in the facilities, has a team that has only been blown out twice during a 35-game stretch to start his tenure here, etc., etc.

No one's happy about being 4-5, but facts are facts: MSU is currently operating with a first-year QB, a first-year stable of RB's, a sub-par OL, a thin defensive backfield, and a relatively weak senior class left over from JLS's implosion years. Not excuses -- reality.

Should MSU be better than 4-5 at the moment? Of course it should. I don't see why it would be unreasonable to expect 6-3, with a great chance of finishing 8-4. Some bad decisions were made by both our players and coaches to get to this point. MSU lost all six games in '07 by eight points or less, and has lost all five this year by eight points or less. Think about that for a minute. Whether you look at that as glass half empty or full, it's an incredible statistic. Again, a thin line between what it accomplished in '08 and what's happening now, but obviously not that far off.

So my question is this: in 2009, what keeps you coming back, or what makes you give up? We've all witnessed the same thing through the years. Some of us choose to look forward and stay the course despite the step back record-wise. Some of us are bailing at the first sign of adversity (as was the case in '07, which followed a strikingly familiar pattern to this season), I guess through conditioning from prior meltdowns.

This is a pretty young staff overall that is really kicking ass on the recruiting trail. I think we can all agree on that. While the here and now is incredibly frustrating, what makes you believe the future isn't going to provide the elusive achievement of steady success? I'm not necessarily talking about Big Ten dominance and BCS bowl games every year, but given our track record, a lot of 8-9 win seasons would be really, really nice to count on in the immediate future.

I'm prone to give coaches the benefit of the doubt, true, but honestly, I don't see anything so troubling about what's around the corner that it would be worth bailing on MD and the program at this point. Maybe it's easier for me to say because I live 12 hours from EL and am lucky to get back to one football game a year. Maybe I'm not as emotionally invested in the wins and losses as I used to be (I take the L's hard when they happen, but am ususally fired up by about Tuesday for the next week's game).

So what keeps you personally coming back, or conversely, why are you now convinced this is the same song, next verse?

[groverj3]

Well, I think that is the man for the job. Last season was a 7 win season disquised as a 9 win one... this year we fell short a couple of times, which in my mind comes down to players not executing as well. However, unlike in the JLS years I think the program's trend is upward. We're recruiting better and aside from the O line and secondary we're pretty good. When those two things get to the same level that everything else is I think we'll be just fine.

[greenbayspartan]

It just sucks that if a team has to go 92 yards in less than a minute with only one timeout we all know they will get it. If they need an onside after failing a 2pt conversion they will recover it and kick a game winning field goal and then KICK IT AGAIN AND RECOVER IT!!!!!!

[DantonIzzo]

Think about this for a minute: from 2002-08, MSU signed a total of 25 four-star recruits. Even that number is misleading, given the fact that we currently have two four-star seniors on the entire team -- Gordon and Gantt (the Class of '06 had seven four-star guys, but the list included JUCO's Ervin Baldwin and Devin Thomas, as well as Patrick Rigan, Jason Diehl and Ken Tinney).

From the '09 and '10 classes alone (and we're not even done with '10), there are 14 four-star kids.

Our average star rating by year:
2002 -- 3.10
2003 -- 2.63
2004 -- 2.93
*2005 -- 2.75
*2006 -- 2.84 (take the aforementioned 4* goners out, and it's much lower)
2007 -- 2.70
2008 -- 2.71
2009 -- 3.30
2010 -- 3.21

*current senior classes

The reinforcements are coming, folks.

[BtothejizA]

hope

[The Truman Show]

The 05 class, which should be the primary foundation of this team:

7 JUCOs.

Man, I hate JLS...

[Tiger1833]

I think once the majority 's recruits mature and develope everything will be fine (who does that sound like?). I mean even though this year has been a disapointment, it's still a hell of a lot better that the John L Smith and Bobby Williams era.

Just think of this year as an oppertunity to face and overcome adversity. With the talent we have developing and comming i am sure that we will come out stronger.

[SpartyHardy]

Originally Posted by BtothejizA

hope

This. I have to continue to have hope...and right now I see as perhaps the last best hope for future long term success for MSU football.

[JonEintheD]

Its pretty easy why I keep coming back.
I am a spartan.
Those kids that take the field every Saturday- they are spartans.
I love my alma mater. I will never turn my back on it.

[612 Virginia]

Excellent work bringing some facts to the table. Just because we had some very good skill players brought in and leftover from Slappie doesn't mean we had enough talent to compete. As we should all know, excellent line play is where it is at. A very good oline can make average skill players look good. However, a crappy oline will bury even the best skill players. Being from Michigan, the Lions have taught this lesson well.

Quality depth is not appreciated as well, and we are starting to need whatever depth we have.

[coach_]

I haven't lost hope in MSU football, just interest. I guess what has me pissed off about this season the most is that it is the COMPLETE OPPOSITE of everything has preached from day one in East Lansing. MD preaches mental toughness, this year's team has looked like a JLS team with all the stupid penalties, failing to be mentally in the game and ready for an opponent, and so on. MD preaches pride before the fall, and this year's team has taken just about every chance to suck its own dick (dramatic enhancements for the team's entrance, the silver lining stickers, all the preseason hype). While I love Mark Dantonio and think very highly of him, he has disappointed me this year (not that that means anything). I realize that there will be times when MD is just outcoached - it happens to every coach - but there is no excuse for losing to CMU, ND, and Minnesota the way we did.

I haven't given up on the program, but I've definitely lost interest in the current season. I will still be at the final 2 home games, and I'll be cheering our team on, but I'll probably find something else to occupy my attention when and if we start sucking. As far as I'm concerned, it's hockey and basketball season now. By June, though...I'll be counting down the days til the 2010 kickoff.

[SpartanGreen78]

Originally Posted by DantonIzzo

So what keeps you personally coming back, or conversely, why are you now convinced this is the same song, next verse?

I can keep watching and coming back and supporting the team because no matter how good or bad it gets, nothing MSU football does has any bearing on my life and big-picture happiness.

When they win, I'm excited and happy. When they lose, I'm disappointed for a short time, then I move on.

Football provides entertainment and a distraction. I fail to understand how people become so emotionally invested in sports that if their team loses, they take it as a personal loss or that their support entitles them to particular outcomes.

RichRod may not be able to say it in the postion he's in, but I can. It's just a game.

[PetVet]

Personally the first 2 years under wre exciting because the mistakes were being corrected, the play calling was not predictable liike under JLS and as others said a mental toughness seemed to be developing. This year has been a major step back - predicatable play calling, same mistakes over and over again and I feel this rests mostly on the coaching staff. Honestly if this happens again next year we should question if and his staff should stay. I'm willing to cut him some slack this year and continue to support the team. This year however has been a killer which has really tested my faith in both the team and the coaching staff. In a year which the BIG 10 is weak we should have excelled.

[EMSP]

I'm one that will be happy with 8-4 seasons. Our inconsistent play and late collapses are madening.

That said, this recruiting class for 2010 hasn't signed yet for anyone, so I'm not sure how you can state that it is ranked in the Top 25.

[Babies Need Tickets]

Originally Posted by Duh Psyience Detective

How many 4 star recruits start on Boise State, Iowa or Cicinnati?

Iowa -- My guess would be more than a few. Look at their classes between '05 and '07. Hunter, Clayborn, and Moeaki were all 4-stars, for instance.

Boise and Cincy -- Don't know. Likely none, certainly no more than one or two. But how many do you need to win consistently in the MAC or the Big East? You need them to win consistently in the Big Ten.

[SpartanGreen78]

Originally Posted by PetVet

we should have excelled.

This is another thing I don't understand. Was I not issued the divine decree that Michigan State Football should be the best and greatest program ever and that all other teams (except for OSU and PSU, and sometimes Michigan) are so far beneath us and we shouldn't have to beat them, they should just give us 50 points and stay in the locker room for 60 minutes.

Please. We "could" have excelled. Not, we "should" have. No team or program is entitled to anything, not MSU, not Florida, not Texas. See...Nebraska, Oklahoma, Georgia, etc.

[Chi-town Juggalo]

I tell you what, I've been a fan of Dantonio all along, but I'm still waiting for a signature win to convince me that he can take this program to the next level. So far he hasn't had that win yet. In 2007 he had chances vs Michigan and OSU. In 2008, he didn't even come close in games vs OSU and PSU. This year he had a golden opportunity vs Iowa. Hopefully next year will be the year(yes, I know I sound like a Cub fan).

[bcspartan]

The only issues that bother me is when the team doesn't look prepared from an Xs and Os standpoint or from a composure(stupid penalties in critical situations,etc) standpoint. So basically the same things that have gone on for the last 40 years.

I think MD is making some progress in this area but there seems to be some regression going on.

[PetVet]

Originally Posted by SpartanGreen78

This is another thing I don't understand. Was I not issued the divine decree that Michigan State Football should be the best and greatest program ever and that all other teams (except for OSU and PSU, and sometimes Michigan) are so far beneath us and we shouldn't have to beat them, they should just give us 50 points and stay in the locker room for 60 minutes.

Please. We "could" have excelled. Not, we "should" have. No team or program is entitled to anything, not MSU, not Florida, not Texas. See...Nebraska, Oklahoma, Georgia, etc.

I am referring to this year. We lost 3 games we shouldn't have. Granted we probably wouldn't finished first which I feel was unreasonable anyways but it would have given this program it's best bowl bid in years. Instead unless we win out I do not feel we deserve a bid. Thus the frustration. I think most of us is just looking for a competitve football team which just quits making the same mistakes and quite frankly this year I blame most of it on coaching. Nevr thought I would say this under regime.

[Wally Fairway]

While I won't say that recruiting doesn't matter, because obviously it is huge, I think the ranking systems are not all that accurate.

Here is a post from another board, that is about another team; a team that went 3-9 last year and could go 5-7 this year.

Originally Posted by Vryce101

Regarding the "lack of talent":

Recruiting Rankings:
Rivals:
2009 - #8
2008 - #10
2007 - #12
2006 - #13
2005 - #6

ESPN:
2009 - #10
2008 - #13
2007 - #10
2006 - #11

Obviously recruiting rankings don't mean that guys are going to automatically pan out, but that's a lot of raw talent to work with.

[Giant Moose]

Have faith: Early September
Lose faith: Sometime in October

Pretty much true every year!

[GRR Spartan]

New players every year and a coach with a recruiting plan based on a successful formula (Ohio State's )

[madisonspartan]

Originally Posted by Chi-town Juggalo

I tell you what, I've been a fan of Dantonio all along, but I'm still waiting for a signature win to convince me that he can take this program to the next level. So far he hasn't had that win yet. In 2007 he had chances vs Michigan and OSU. In 2008, he didn't even come close in games vs OSU and PSU. This year he had a golden opportunity vs Iowa. Hopefully next year will be the year(yes, I know I sound like a Cub fan).

2007 against a superior PSU team with our backs literally against the wall? We had to win and we had to mount an amazing fourth quarter comeback in the freezing cold to do it. And the Lions defense was damn tough in '07! That was a pretty damn signature win if you ask me.

Either way, to respond to the OP, what brings me back with MD that didn't with Bobby or John L. is that the team doesn't quit. If we were sitting at 4-5 after some heartbreakers under Williams and Smith, there would be no optimism. No one thought we'd make a bowl, and no one thought we could come back and win any football games. Everyone accepted that the season was over.

Right now, there are three (maybe four) games left this year, and I don't think we'll get our butts kicked out of the stadium in any of them. Coach D will have the team scratching, clawing, and fighting in every possible way to get bowl eligible. No one on this team will give up, and that's a really positive reflection on the head coach.

[gogreen/gowhite]

In sickness and in health, in good times and in bad...oh wait those are my marraige vows. If my husband made me so upset so often over the years, (like the football team) we wouldn't be married anymore.

I currently have faith, because I am buying into that they are rebuilding the program and that takes time. I still beleive in .

I am not going to yet.

[Booyah]

Originally Posted by DantonIzzo

Think about this for a minute: from 2002-08, MSU signed a total of 25 four-star recruits. Even that number is misleading, given the fact that we currently have two four-star seniors on the entire team -- Gordon and Gantt (the Class of '06 had seven four-star guys, but the list included JUCO's Ervin Baldwin and Devin Thomas, as well as Patrick Rigan, Jason Diehl and Ken Tinney).

From the '09 and '10 classes alone (and we're not even done with '10), there are 14 four-star kids.

Our average star rating by year:
2002 -- 3.10
2003 -- 2.63
2004 -- 2.93
*2005 -- 2.75
*2006 -- 2.84 (take the aforementioned 4* goners out, and it's much lower)
2007 -- 2.70
2008 -- 2.71
2009 -- 3.30
2010 -- 3.21

*current senior classes

The reinforcements are coming, folks.

When was the last time CMU and Minnesota outrecruited MSU? So with your obsession with recruiting rankings, the question is 'if MSU has superior talent to CMU and Minnesota, why are they losing to these teams? If it's not talent, than what is the problem?