Probably my last 9/11 post

[Dr. Strangelove]

Originally Posted by roundhead

no

Then were the hell did my wife go?

Signed,
The Solicitor General of the United States at the time. Also, I won a little case called Bush v Gore back in 2000.

[Fletch]

Originally Posted by roundhead

no

FYI, I have a close personal friend who saw that plane WITH HIS OWN EYES from the highway. Please let me know if 1) he is being paid off or blackmailed by the evil US government or 2) he's just plain wacky like the thousands of other eye witnesses.

[Z.Cavaricci]

Originally Posted by roundhead

no

OK...now this is why people think you are insane. There were passengers on board this plane that lost their lives. I dont care if the passenger lsist dont match, are one to two passengers off or if the passenger list doesnt exist at all. How do you explain the families who THINK they lost a family member ?

Use your brain.....

[Donnyrotten]

Originally Posted by Dr. Strangelove

Then were the hell did my wife go?

Signed,
The Solicitor General of the United States at the time. Also, I won a little case called Bush v Gore back in 2000.

Olsen's"testimony"about his wife calling him is very iffy(to give it more credit than it even deserves)

there is a journalist who has made several claims that Barbara is in Europe and was even picked up by authorities..i tend to not believe this report,and have not cited it...but i sure dont believe Ted...google barbara Olsen,the report is easily found...do a little checking on the circumstances regards that phone call,there is way more to it than meets the eye..and i am not refering to her supposedly not having a credit card on her..


What i would really like to see is footage of the AA plane hitting the Pentagon..its out there....

and i would really like to have a peep under that blue tarp as well..

[Z.Cavaricci]

Originally Posted by roundhead

Olsen's"testimony"about his wife calling him is very iffy(to give it more credit than it even deserves)

there is a journalist who has made several claims that Barbara is in Europe and was even picked up by authorities..i tend to not believe this report,and have not cited it...but i sure dont believe Ted...google barbara Olsen,the report is easily found...do a little checking on the circumstances regards that phone call,there is way more to it than meets the eye..and i am not refering to her supposedly not having a credit card on her..


What i would really like to see is footage of the AA plane hitting the Pentagon..its out there....

and i would really like to have a peep under that blue tarp as well..

Again, use your brain. If Barbara is not dead why has she not contacted her husband to let him know she didnt die, she was wisked away to Europe. Also what about her family ? Do they also know she is alive but are just tight lipped.

I cannot believe these simple questions dont help you realize how nutty these theories are.

Or maybe they flashed the Men In Black memory eraser in front of her and she has no idea who she is.

[Fletch]

The single biggest and most obvious debunker of 9/11 conspiracy theorists is this:

In order for what they think happened (and they all have different wacked out theories) to actually happen, THOUSANDS of people would have to be keeping the murder of 3000 American citizens by their own government a secret. Think about that.

Think about the logistics that would have had to go into such an enormous undertaking and the number of people necessary to accomplish it. If you believe even a fraction of what Roundhead spews around here, you're talking about demolishing two of the biggest buildings on the face of the earth, making airplanes and passengers disappear, firing a missle or planting a bomb at one of the highest profile buildings in the world, giving orders to ground or delay military responses, somehow encouraging or manipulating a known terrorist group into taking credit for the action, dictating that countless law enforcement agencies inspecting the aftermath ignore evidence pointing towards such a plot, and on and on and on. The number of people that would have to be involved in such a plot is mind-blowing.

And now think about the number of government "secrets" only held by a very small number of people that routinely become public knowledge and tell me that the THOUSANDS of people that would have had to been a part of such a convoluted and nonsensical conspiracy have managed to keep quiet for five years.

This is something even the most creative conspiracy theorist simply cannot dream up an answer to.

[lars]

Roundhead, I suggest you see the movie World Trade Center. While I realize this is a Hollywood recreation. It does remind us of the size of the WTC. And the enormous weight of the upper floors compacting on the entire building. I think people forget just how big those towers were. They were HUGE and the weight of top floors collapsing on a weakened structure was amazing. It is easy to see how the weight pancaked the buildings.

It is also easy to see how the collapse damaged the building around. Pieces of the building were falling off prior to the collapse and when they fell the hit other buildings. When you look at the WTC from a distance it seems small footprint but in reality they were large and created a lot a damage in the surrounding area when they fell.

[lars]

Originally Posted by Fletch

The single biggest and most obvious debunker of 9/11 conspiracy theorists is this:

In order for what they think happened (and they all have different wacked out theories) to actually happen, THOUSANDS of people would have to be keeping the murder of 3000 American citizens by their own government a secret. Think about that.

Think about the logistics that would have had to go into such an enormous undertaking and the number of people necessary to accomplish it. If you believe even a fraction of what Roundhead spews around here, you're talking about demolishing two of the biggest buildings on the face of the earth, making airplanes and passengers disappear, firing a missle or planting a bomb at one of the highest profile buildings in the world, giving orders to ground or delay military responses, somehow encouraging or manipulating a known terrorist group into taking credit for the action, dictating that countless law enforcement agencies inspecting the aftermath ignore evidence pointing towards such a plot, and on and on and on. The number of people that would have to be involved in such a plot is mind-blowing.

And now think about the number of government "secrets" only held by a very small number of people that routinely become public knowledge and tell me that the THOUSANDS of people that would have had to been a part of such a convoluted and nonsensical conspiracy have managed to keep quiet for five years.

This is something even the most creative conspiracy theorist simply cannot dream up an answer to.

Roundhead this arguement seems to come up over and over. You never address it. Nor do your co-conspiracy links. So how do you explain this?? How do explain that everyday citizens on airplanes are pretending to be dead and keeping this secert? What would make them go along? What about thousands of others involved?

[Donnyrotten]

Thats the big deal with the govt believers...that so many people had to be in on it that a leak would come out....thats the point..it has come out...scores of witnesses(even fbi and cia agents)have come out,wanting to testify before the commision...and being put under gag orders...scores of eye witnesses at the towers had their stories squashed by the govt untill just last year(2005)after a protracted court battle..you ignore all these brave people who have stepped forward..but have been gagged,or ignored my mainstream media....Sibel Edmonds is probably the best example...read up on her senate testimony(found to be totally true)..her 3 hours of testimony before the commision(not a word of which was cited)..most people are just like most of us on here..they dont want to rock the boat or loose a job over something they dont think will change anything anyhow...but they will come out of the woodwork if a court case finally come to happen...

as regards Barbara Olsen......interesting link..especially as regards the 2.50 cent charge...and the fact she claims the pilot was in the back of the plane with her...interesting to note that friends of the pilot,Chic Burlingame,says he would never had handed over the controls to "box cutter armed"terrorists,knowing by listening to radio reports that two other planes had already been highjacked and rammed into the towers

http://www.vialls.com/lies911/lies.htm



btw...have you ever noticed that the 9/11 victims in Ny at the towers have been extremely pro 9//1 truth..ie...they dont believe the govt.....but the plane"victims"families we have heard almost nothing from,and by only a couple of them even regarding anything..

you are trusting the govt entirely to believe an as yet unofficial passenger list...with no verifable victims...at all...


i can give you a link to the 24 fed employees who wrote a public letter to the commision,which they all signed..24 thats a large number of GOVT employees..and the letter sure doesnt have anything nice to say about the investigation,i can assure you

[Donnyrotten]

Originally Posted by Fletch

FYI, I have a close personal friend who saw that plane WITH HIS OWN EYES from the highway. Please let me know if 1) he is being paid off or blackmailed by the evil US government or 2) he's just plain wacky like the thousands of other eye witnesses.

if he saw flight 77.why wont the govt show it to us...dont you find that even a tiny bit strange...that one simple thing would do great harm to people that dont believe the govt..and dont ask me to believe whatever hit the pentagon they dont have pictures of...with security cameras all over the place...and they roll out those phony 4 frames...that even O'Reilly says doesnt show anything.....how can that not bother you?????


btw...i dont believe your buddy

[lars]

Originally Posted by roundhead

Thats the big deal with the govt believers...that so many people had to be in on it that a leak would come out....thats the point..it has come out...scores of witnesses(even fbi and cia agents)have come out,wanting to testify before the commision...and being put under gag orders...scores of eye witnesses at the towers had their stories squashed by the govt untill just last year(2005)after a protracted court battle..you ignore all these brave people who have stepped forward..but have been gagged,or ignored my mainstream media....Sibel Edmonds is probably the best example...read up on her senate testimony(found to be totally true)..her 3 hours of testimony before the commision(not a word of which was cited)..most people are just like most of us on here..they dont want to rock the boat or loose a job over something they dont think will change anything anyhow...but they will come out of the woodwork if a court case finally come to happen...

as regards Barbara Olsen......interesting link..especially as regards the 2.50 cent charge...and the fact she claims the pilot was in the back of the plane with her...interesting to note that friends of the pilot,Chic Burlingame,says he would never had handed over the controls to "box cutter armed"terrorists,knowing by listening to radio reports that two other planes had already been highjacked and rammed into the towers

http://www.vialls.com/lies911/lies.htm



btw...have you ever noticed that the 9/11 victims in Ny at the towers have been extremely pro 9//1 truth..ie...they dont believe the govt.....but the plane"victims"families we have heard almost nothing from,and by only a couple of them even regarding anything..

you are trusting the govt entirely to believe an as yet unofficial passenger list...with no verifable victims...at all...

This doesn't make sense. Ok If their are some people in government jobs their story might by 'squashed' for fear of losing a job. But some of them would come out because they don't want to be involved in killing 3000 people. This is NOT about 'rocking the boat' it about the death of 3000 innocent people.

And what about all the citizens. They cant be squashed. They have no govt job to lose. And the 'victims' on the planes that never flew. What incentive do they have to pretend they are dead and leave their families forever. They would have to be pretty committed to follow through with that.

So your arguement just doesn't hold water. Saying a one person came out and was disregarded by the 9/11 commission does not make a conspiracy. If her story held weight others in the media would make a big deal. And nothing explains why the thousands of others would not speak out and why two plane loads of passengers would just pretend to die.

[Dr. Strangelove]

Originally Posted by roundhead

if he saw flight 77.why wont the govt show it to us...dont you find that even a tiny bit strange...that one simple thing would do great harm to people that dont believe the govt..and dont ask me to believe whatever hit the pentagon they dont have pictures of...with security cameras all over the place...and they roll out those phony 4 frames...that even O'Reilly says doesnt show anything.....how can that not bother you?????


btw...i dont believe your buddy

Why am I even posting this?

There is spectacular video of the Flight 77 slamming into the Pentagon. Howver, the military confiscated it because they were embarassed that they couldn't even protect their own HQ let alone our nation on that fateful Tuesday morning.

I don't think it's right - I'm just saying what is.

It will come out eventually.

[Fletch]

Originally Posted by roundhead

btw...i dont believe your buddy

This from the guy who considers him open minded and educated on 9/11.

I think your best strategy is to go back to not discussing this any more - you're embarrassing yourself.

[Z.Cavaricci]

Originally Posted by roundhead

they roll out those phony 4 frames...that even O'Reilly says doesnt show anything.....how can that not bother you?????

Of course it doesnt show anything. The plane was traveling at 500mph and the cameras FPS was horrible. The security car that moves through the gate flashes through in 2 or 3 frames. The car was probably moving 5mph.

[Donnyrotten]

Originally Posted by lars

Roundhead, I suggest you see the movie World Trade Center. While I realize this is a Hollywood recreation. It does remind us of the size of the WTC. And the enormous weight of the upper floors compacting on the entire building. I think people forget just how big those towers were. They were HUGE and the weight of top floors collapsing on a weakened structure was amazing. It is easy to see how the weight pancaked the buildings.

It is also easy to see how the collapse damaged the building around. Pieces of the building were falling off prior to the collapse and when they fell the hit other buildings. When you look at the WTC from a distance it seems small footprint but in reality they were large and created a lot a damage in the surrounding area when they fell.

i actually find myself agreeing with most all of your comments..especially how huge the towers are...thats why it bugs me that you believe those tiny planes could have brought them down....do you realize that those planes(fully loaded..btw they werent)comprise .03 percent of the mass of one of the towers..thats 1/3 of 1%...thats why the guy who built the towers.Frank Demartini(project manager)


said they would be like putting a pencil into mosquito netting,i remember Fletch calling this guys quote stupid..i would think he should know about the towers and their construction,as he was in charge of it...

[Donnyrotten]

Originally Posted by lars

This doesn't make sense. Ok If their are some people in government jobs their story might by 'squashed' for fear of losing a job. But some of them would come out because they don't want to be involved in killing 3000 people. This is NOT about 'rocking the boat' it about the death of 3000 innocent people.

And what about all the citizens. They cant be squashed. They have no govt job to lose. And the 'victims' on the planes that never flew. What incentive do they have to pretend they are dead and leave their families forever. They would have to be pretty committed to follow through with that.

So your arguement just doesn't hold water. Saying a one person came out and was disregarded by the 9/11 commission does not make a conspiracy. If her story held weight others in the media would make a big deal. And nothing explains why the thousands of others would not speak out and why two plane loads of passengers would just pretend to die.

your assuming there were people on all 4 of those flights...i am not...our own govt says two of them didnt fly that day...and that the other two are still in service...or at least their tail numbers are....

show me some verifiable evidence(serialized parts from any of the four planes),show me the pentagon photos...maybe i might be less sceptical...

heck,these planes represent the first time in Us aviation history that an investigation hasnt been done to find out what happened to them.....no black boxes...nah...dont believe any of it

[Z.Cavaricci]

ANSWER THE QUESTION YOU KEEP AVOIDING....WHERE ARE THESE PEOPLE ? Look at all the family members who were in on this conspiracy.

American Airlines Flight 77, from Washington to Los Angeles, crashed into the Pentagon with 64 people aboard.

CREW


Charles Burlingame of Herndon, Virginia, was the plane's captain. He is survived by a wife, a daughter and a grandson. He had more than 20 years of experience flying with American Airlines and was a former U.S. Navy pilot.
David Charlebois, who lived in Washington's Dupont Circle neighborhood, was the first officer on the flight. "He was handsome and happy and very centered," his neighbor Travis White, told The Washington Post. "His life was the kind of life I wanted to have some day."
Michele Heidenberger of Chevy Chase, Maryland, was a flight attendant for 30 years. She left behind a husband, a pilot, and a daughter and son.
Flight attendant Jennifer Lewis, 38, of Culpeper, Virginia, was the wife of flight attendant Kenneth Lewis.
Flight attendant Kenneth Lewis, 49, of Culpeper, Virginia, was the husband of flight attendant Jennifer Lewis.
Renee May, 39, of Baltimore, Maryland, was a flight attendant.




PASSENGERS


Paul Ambrose, 32, of Washington, was a physician who worked with the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services and the surgeon general to address racial and ethnic disparities in health. A 1995 graduate of Marshall University School of Medicine, Ambrose last year was named the Luther Terry Fellow of the Association of Teachers of Preventative Medicine.
Yeneneh Betru, 35, was from Burbank, California.
M.J. Booth
Bernard Brown, 11, was a student at Leckie Elementary School in Washington. He was embarking on an educational trip to the Channel Islands National Marine Sanctuary near Santa Barbara, California, as part of a program funded by the National Geographic Society.
Suzanne Calley, 42, of San Martin, California, was an employee of Cisco Systems Inc.
William Caswell
Sarah Clark, 65, of Columbia, Maryland, was a sixth-grade teacher at Backus Middle School in Washington. She was accompanying a student on an educational trip to the Channel Islands National Marine Sanctuary near Santa Barbara, California, as part of a program funded by the National Geographic Society.
Asia Cottom, 11, was a student at Backus Middle School in Washington. Asia was embarking on an educational trip to the Channel Islands National Marine Sanctuary near Santa Barbara, California, as part of a program funded by the National Geographic Society.
James Debeuneure, 58, of Upper Marlboro, Maryland, was a fifth-grade teacher at Ketcham Elementary School in Washington. He was accompanying a student on an educational trip to the Channel Islands National Marine Sanctuary near Santa Barbara, California, as part of a program funded by the National Geographic Society.
Rodney Dickens, 11, was a student at Leckie Elementary School in Washington. He was embarking on an educational trip to the Channel Islands National Marine Sanctuary near Santa Barbara, California, as part of a program funded by the National Geographic Society.
Eddie Dillard
Charles Droz
Barbara Edwards, 58, of Las Vegas, Nevada, was a teacher at Palo Verde High School in Las Vegas.
Charles S. Falkenberg, 45, of University Park, Maryland, was the director of research at ECOlogic Corp., a software engineering firm. He worked on data systems for NASA and also developed data systems for the study of global and regional environmental issues. Falkenburg was traveling with his wife, Leslie Whittingham, and their two daughters, Zoe, 8, and Dana, 3.
Zoe Falkenberg, 8, of University Park, Maryland, was the daughter of Charles Falkenberg and Leslie Whittingham.
Dana Falkenberg, 3, of University Park, Maryland, was the daughter of Charles Falkenberg and Leslie Whittingham.
Joe Ferguson was the director of the National Geographic Society's geography education outreach program in Washington. He was accompanying a group of students and teachers on an educational trip to the Channel Islands in California. A Mississippi native, he joined the society in 1987. "Joe Feguson's final hours at the Geographic reveal the depth of his commitment to one of the things he really loved," said John Fahey Jr., the society's president. "Joe was here at the office until late Monday evening preparing for this trip. It was his goal to make this trip perfect in every way."
Wilson "Bud" Flagg of Millwood, Virginia, was a retired Navy admiral and retired American Airlines pilot.
Dee Flagg
Richard Gabriel
Ian Gray, 55, of Washington was the president of a health-care consulting firm.
Stanley Hall, 68, was from Rancho Palos Verdes, California.
Bryan Jack, 48, of Alexandria, Virginia, was a senior executive at the Defense Department.
Steven D. "Jake" Jacoby, 43, of Alexandria, Virginia, was the chief operating officer of Metrocall Inc., a wireless data and messaging company.
Ann Judge, 49, of Virginia was the travel office manager for the National Geographic Society. She was accompanying a group of students and teachers on an educational trip to the Channel Islands in California. Society President John Fahey Jr. said one of his fondest memories of Judge is a voice mail she and a colleague once left him while they were rafting the Monkey River in Belize. "This was quintessential Ann -- living life to the fullest and wanting to share it with others," he said.
Chandler Keller, 29, was a Boeing propulsion engineer from El Segundo, California.
Yvonne Kennedy
Norma Khan, 45, from Reston, Virginia was a nonprofit organization manager.
Karen A. Kincaid, 40, was a lawyer with the Washington firm of Wiley Rein & Fielding. She joined the firm in 1993 and was part of the its telecommunications practice. She was married to Peter Batacan.
Norma Langsteuerle
Dong Lee
Dora Menchaca, 45, of Santa Monica, California, was the associate director of clinical research for a biotech firm.
Christopher Newton, 38, of Anaheim, California, was president and chief executive officer of Work-Life Benefits, a consultation and referral service. He was married and had two children. Newton was on his way back to Orange County to retrieve his family's yellow Labrador, who had been left behind until they could settle into their new home in Arlington, Virginia.
Barbara Olson, 45, was a conservative commentator who often appeared on CNN and was married to U.S. Solicitor General Theodore Olson. She twice called her husband as the plane was being hijacked and described some details, including that the attackers were armed with knives. She had planned to take a different flight, but she changed it at the last minute so that she could be with her husband on his birthday. She worked as an investigator for the House Government Reform Committee in the mid-1990s and later worked on the staff of Senate Minority Whip Don Nickles.
Ruben Ornedo, 39, of Los Angeles, California, was a Boeing propulsion engineer.
Robert Penniger, 63, of Poway, California, was an electrical engineer with BAE Systems.
Lisa Raines, 42, was senior vice president for government relations at the Washington office of Genzyme, a biotechnology firm. She was from Great Falls, Virginia, and was married to Stephen Push. She worked with the U.S. Food and Drug Administration on developing a new policy governing cellular therapies, announced in 1997. She also worked on other major health-care legislation.
Todd Reuben, 40, of Potomac, Maryland, was a tax and business lawyer.
John Sammartino
Diane Simmons
George Simmons
Mari-Rae Sopper of Santa Barbara, California, was a women's gymnastics coach at the University of California at Santa Barbara. She had just gotten the post August 31 and was making the trip to California to start work.
Bob Speisman, 47, was from Irvington, New York.
Hilda Taylor was a sixth-grade teacher at Leckie Elementary School in Washington. She was accompanying a student on an educational trip to the Channel Islands National Marine Sanctuary near Santa Barbara, California, as part of a program funded by the National Geographic Society.
Leonard Taylor was from Reston, Virginia.
Leslie A. Whittington, 45, was from University Park, Maryland. The professor of public policy at Georgetown University in Washington was traveling with her husband, Charles Falkenberg, 45, and their two daughters, Zoe, 8, and Dana, 3. They were traveling to Los Angeles to catch a connection to Australia. Whittington had been named a visiting fellow at Australian National University in Canberra.
John Yamnicky, 71, was from Waldorf, Maryland.
Vicki Yancey
Shuyin Yang
Yuguag Zheng

You cannot really believe these people are still alive can you ?

[Donnyrotten]

Originally Posted by Fletch

This from the guy who considers him open minded and educated on 9/11.

I think your best strategy is to go back to not discussing this any more - you're embarrassing yourself.

actually i am not embarrasing myself at all..to the contrary,you and others who choose to believe the govts lie are the real idiots...i,sir,am a patriot.i want our govt accountable for the crimes they commited that day...you choose to turn the other cheek....its really quite shamefull of you