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Wells Hall Off-topic Board Politics, Religion, and Social Issues. This board is your pulpit to preach to the masses (like the Wells Hall preacher) about everything from politics to religion. Please be kind to your fellow Spartans. Post as if your family is in the other computer.

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Old 08-16-2006, 04:24 PM   #51 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by roundhead View Post
the fact is...at any speed..and dont be so niave as to believe a 150 foot long plane cant be shown hitting the pentagon by any film...thats insane...you should know better than to post something like that...mighty weak...the one and only reason we havent seen it is because it didnt happen..or,and this is most likely..it wouldnt show an AA 757 hitting it..more likely the reason why we will NEVER see it.
I was simply talking about the stupid video nut jobs show and try to say there is no way it is a plane. The damn car skips through the picture in 3 frames and they are surprised they dont see a plane perfectly from that security camera.
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Old 08-16-2006, 04:26 PM   #52 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by roundhead View Post
in the context of the slanderous assaults i have had on here expressing my views(and boy have i gotten some positive Pm's from people on this site regarding my opinion)...i think i am probably to nice..i assume you didnt read the comment above prior to my post
I am just saying you are arrogant when you say you are right and if no one believes these theories they are wrong.

I have tried to keep the insults to a minimum but it is hard when some of these theories are just so far off its annoying.
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Old 08-16-2006, 04:27 PM   #53 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by roundhead View Post
i actually find myself agreeing with most all of your comments..especially how huge the towers are...thats why it bugs me that you believe those tiny planes could have brought them down....do you realize that those planes(fully loaded..btw they werent)comprise .03 percent of the mass of one of the towers..thats 1/3 of 1%...thats why the guy who built the towers.Frank Demartini(project manager)


said they would be like putting a pencil into mosquito netting,i remember Fletch calling this guys quote stupid..i would think he should know about the towers and their construction,as he was in charge of it...
Roundhead,

Have you seen a commercial jet? Those are BIG planes. Also look at a missle. Not so big but it causes big time destruction. This is the same concept as a plane loaded with jet fuel crashing into the towers. It causes a lot of damage even if the planes are small compared to the entire volume of the towers. If you look a the holes they created those are NOT small holes in the side of the buildings.
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Old 08-16-2006, 04:28 PM   #54 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by lars View Post
Oh I read you article on Barbara Olsen. What does that prove? So she talked to her husband 2 times on the 9/11 flight. And the news reported on it the next day 9/12. Am I supposed to believe that because the news was able to get a story from a CNN reporter quickly about phone conversations she had with her husband that the all the other conversations were made up from the other passengers? Just because the other passengers stories were not reported for a few days after 9/11?

How about thinking this through. People don't just jump out to the media and tell them about their personal phone call on the day their family members die. Barbara Olsen had direct connection to CNN so it makes sense that she might tell her story right away. What about Todd Beamers wife did she make up her story? Was she paid off to have her husband pretend he died? I don't think so.
you ignored the fact...in that article..that Ted Olsen has NEVER been quoted as regards his wife...you also ignore she was the only person on that flight who "made a call"...and you also ignore the pertintant info in that article....that she couldnt have made it....better reread it..

and think about this..she claims(to her husband)she was in the back of the plane asking what she should tell the pilot to do...would YOU hand over the controls to a guy with box cutters,when you already knew two planes had been crashed...or just go to the back of the plane to await your fate...think thats believable????????

Last edited by Donnyrotten; 08-16-2006 at 04:31 PM.
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Old 08-16-2006, 04:32 PM   #55 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by roundhead View Post
you ignored the fact...in that article..that Ted Olsen has NEVER been quoted as regards his wife...you also ignore she was the only person on that flight who "made a call"...and you also ignore the pertintant info in that article....that she couldnt have made it....better reread it..

and think about this..she claims(to her husband)she was in the back of the plane asking what she should tell the pilot to do...would YOU hand over the controls to a guy with box cutters,when you already knew two planes had been crashed...or just go to the back of the plane to await your fate...think thats believable????????
The article ignores the fact that many others made calls to the spouses. Are those made up based on Baraba Olsens story? Again, is Todd Beamer's wife lying?
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Old 08-16-2006, 04:32 PM   #56 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Dell Griffith View Post
Denial is the refusal to acknowledge the existence or severity of unpleasant external realities or internal thoughts and feelings.


roundhead, here is a link to help you with your problem...

http://www.minddisorders.com/Del-Fi/Denial.html

i am fine..as you had the link and i assume have already read it,maybe another time through it might be in order
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Old 08-16-2006, 04:39 PM   #57 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by lars View Post
Roundhead,

Have you seen a commercial jet? Those are BIG planes. Also look at a missle. Not so big but it causes big time destruction. This is the same concept as a plane loaded with jet fuel crashing into the towers. It causes a lot of damage even if the planes are small compared to the entire volume of the towers. If you look a the holes they created those are NOT small holes in the side of the buildings.

and you are ignoring the fact they were designed to be hit by a FULLY LOADED 707...hint fully loaded 707...ie 25,000 gallons of fuel...not the 10,000 gallons the tower planes had onboard...and dont try and tell me a 707 is a dinky plane..there sizes are very similar..

and you seem to ignore the project managers qquote i cited earlier..they would do anything to the towers

so here you have a building designed to withstand 140mph winds(more stress than the planes would have made)and the guy who built them teling us the planes would be nothing in the scope of damage to make them come down...pretty convincing to me
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Old 08-16-2006, 04:43 PM   #58 (permalink)
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I am outta here for the day...gotta go see my shrink...and try and convince him the govt is right...ie change his mind.....actually i am going to the drag strip for a little testing with the car.


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Old 08-16-2006, 04:52 PM   #59 (permalink)
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and you are ignoring the fact they were designed to be hit by a FULLY LOADED 707...hint fully loaded 707...ie 25,000 gallons of fuel...not the 10,000 gallons the tower planes had onboard
This is hard to believe simply because I cant imagine any way this could be tested. How could they design a building to withstand something that has never happened like that.
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Old 08-16-2006, 04:56 PM   #60 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by roundhead View Post
and you are ignoring the fact they were designed to be hit by a FULLY LOADED 707...hint fully loaded 707...ie 25,000 gallons of fuel...not the 10,000 gallons the tower planes had onboard...and dont try and tell me a 707 is a dinky plane..there sizes are very similar..

and you seem to ignore the project managers qquote i cited earlier..they would do anything to the towers

so here you have a building designed to withstand 140mph winds(more stress than the planes would have made)and the guy who built them teling us the planes would be nothing in the scope of damage to make them come down...pretty convincing to me

So are you saying that the building designer thinks charges must have brought the building down? If so I would like to see evidence that he thinks this. Or is he saying We thought we built those buildings to withstand alot but clearly we couldn't anticipate them to withstand being hit by these large of planes and the ensuing fire. which is more likely what he thinks.

Last edited by lars; 08-17-2006 at 10:33 AM.
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Old 08-16-2006, 04:57 PM   #61 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roundhead View Post
and you are ignoring the fact they were designed to be hit by a FULLY LOADED 707...hint fully loaded 707...ie 25,000 gallons of fuel...not the 10,000 gallons the tower planes had onboard...and dont try and tell me a 707 is a dinky plane..there sizes are very similar..
nope wrong: it was designed to withstand a lost 707 looking to land in NY ... where its likely it will only have an hour of fuel time ...
Quote:
Originally Posted by http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collapse_of_the_World_Trade_Center
The buildings had in fact been designed to withstand the impact of the largest airliner of the day, the Boeing 707-320, lost in fog while looking to land. The modeled aircraft weighed 263,000 lb (119 metric tons) with a flight speed of 180 mph (290 km/h), as in approach and landing.[2]The 767s that hit the towers had a kinetic energy more than seven times greater than the modeled impact. Nonetheless, the impacts alone did not cause the towers to collapse.
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Old 08-16-2006, 05:08 PM   #62 (permalink)
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nope wrong: it was designed to withstand a lost 707 looking to land in NY ... where its likely it will only have an hour of fuel time ...
A perfect example of how these theorists twist and turn facts to sound better for their argument.
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Old 08-16-2006, 08:36 PM   #63 (permalink)
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nope wrong: it was designed to withstand a lost 707 looking to land in NY ... where its likely it will only have an hour of fuel time ...
Actually the building did withstand the impact of both planes. They exceeded the engineering requirements. However, it was the impact plus the resulting fire from the jet fuel that burned for hours that ultimately brought the buildings down.
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Old 08-16-2006, 08:48 PM   #64 (permalink)
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http://www.civil.usyd.edu.au/wtc.shtml

Here is a civil engineer's assessment of the collapse. University of Sydney Australia.
World Trade Center - Some Engineering Aspects


Height: 1,368 and 1,362 feet (417 and 415 meters)
Owners: Port Authority of New York and New Jersey.
(99 year leased signed in April 2001 to groups including Westfield America and Silverstein Properties)
Architect: Minoru Yamasaki, Emery Roth and Sons consulting
Engineer: John Skilling and Leslie Robertson of Worthington, Skilling, Helle and Jackson
Ground Breaking: August 5, 1966
Opened: 1970-73; April 4, 1973 ribbon cutting
Destroyed: Terrorist attack, September 11, 2001

The Structural System





Yamasaki and engineers John Skilling and Les Robertson worked closely, and the relationship between the towers’ design and structure is clear. Faced with the difficulties of building to unprecedented heights, the engineers employed an innovative structural model: a rigid "hollow tube" of closely spaced steel columns with floor trusses extending across to a central core. The columns, finished with a silver-colored aluminum alloy, were 18 3/4" wide and set only 22" apart, making the towers appear from afar to have no windows at all.

Also unique to the engineering design were its core and elevator system. The twin towers were the first supertall buildings designed without any masonry. Worried that the intense air pressure created by the buildings’ high speed elevators might buckle conventional shafts, engineers designed a solution using a drywall system fixed to the reinforced steel core. For the elevators, to serve 110 stories with a traditional configuration would have required half the area of the lower stories be used for shaftways. Otis Elevators developed an express and local system, whereby passengers would change at "sky lobbies" on the 44th and 78th floors, halving the number of shaftways.

(Taken from www.skyscraper.org)

The structural system, deriving from the I.B.M. Building in Seattle, is impressively simple. The 208-foot wide facade is, in effect, a prefabricated steel lattice, with columns on 39-inch centers acting as wind bracing to resist all overturning forces; the central core takes only the gravity loads of the building. A very light, economical structure results by keeping the wind bracing in the most efficient place, the outside surface of the building, thus not transferring the forces through the floor membrane to the core, as in most curtain-wall structures. Office spaces will have no interior columns. In the upper floors there is as much as 40,000 square feet of office space per floor. The floor construction is of prefabricated trussed steel, only 33 inches in depth, that spans the full 60 feet to the core, and also acts as a diaphragm to stiffen the outside wall against lateral buckling forces from wind-load pressures."

Taken from www.greatbuildings.com

Typical Floor Plan of the World Trade Center

A perimeter of closely spaced columns, with an internal lift core. The floors were supported by a series of light trusses on rubber pads, which spanned between the outer columns and the lift core.

Why Did It Collapse?





Tim Wilkinson, Lecturer in Civil Engineering

(This is an initial suggestion, originally written on Sept 11 2001 (with some minor subsequent changes) on one possible reason for failure, and should not be regarded as official advice.)

The structural integrity of the World Trade Center depends on the closely spaced columns around the perimeter. Lightweight steel trusses span between the central elevator core and the perimeter columns on each floor. These trusses support the concrete slab of each floor and tie the perimeter columns to the core, preventing the columns from buckling outwards.

After the initial plane impacts, it appeared to most observers that the structures had been severely damaged, but not necessarily fatally.

It appears likely that the impact of the plane crash destroyed a significant number of perimeter columns on several floors of the building, severely weakening the entire system. Initially this was not enough to cause collapse.

However, as fire raged in the upper floors, the heat would have been gradually affecting the behaviour of the remaining material. As the planes had only recently taken off, the fire would have been initially fuelled by large volumes of jet fuel, which then ignited any combustible material in the building. While the fire would not have been hot enough to melt any of the steel, the strength of the steel drops markedly with prolonged exposure to fire, while the elastic modulus of the steel reduces (stiffness drops), increasing deflections.

Modern structures are designed to resist fire for a specific length of time. Safety features such as fire retarding materials and sprinkler systems help to contain fires, help extinguish flames, or prevent steel from being exposed to excessively high temperatures. This gives occupants time to escape and allow fire fighters to extinguish blazes, before the building is catastrophically damaged.

It is possible that the blaze, started by jet fuel and then engulfing the contents of the offices, in a highly confined area, generated fire conditions significantly more severe than those anticipated in a typical office fire. These conditions may have overcome the building's fire defences considerably faster than expected. It is likely that the water pipes that supplied the fire sprinklers were severed by the plane impact, and much of the fire protective material, designed to stop the steel from being heated and losing strength, was blown off by the blast at impact.

Eventually, the loss of strength and stiffness of the materials resulting from the fire, combined with the initial impact damage, would have caused a failure of the truss system supporting a floor, or the remaining perimeter columns, or even the internal core, or some combination. Failure of the flooring system would have subsequently allowed the perimeter columns to buckle outwards. Regardless of which of these possibilities actually occurred, it would have resulted in the complete collapse of at least one complete storey at the level of impact.

Once one storey collapsed all floors above would have begun to fall. The huge mass of falling structure would gain momentum, crushing the structurally intact floors below, resulting in catastrophic failure of the entire structure. While the columns at say level 50 were designed to carry the static load of 50 floors above, once one floor collapsed and the floors above started to fall, the dynamic load of 50 storeys above is very much greater, and the columns were almost instantly destroyed as each floor progressively "pancaked" to the ground.

(US readers note: storey is the Australian/English spelling of story)

Sydney Morning Herald graphic adapted from the information on this page.

The only evidence so far are photographs and television footage. Whether failure was initiated at the perimeter columns or the core is unknown. The extent to which the internal parts were damaged during the collision may be evident in the rubble if any forensic investigation is conducted. Since the mass of the combined towers is close to 1000000 tons, finding evidence will be an enormous task.

Perimeter columns, several storeys high, and still linked together, lie amongst all the debris on the ground.

This photograph shows the south tower just as it is collapsing. It is evident that the building is falling over to the left. The North Tower collapsed directly downwards, on top of itself. The same mechanism of failure, the combination of impact and subsequent fire damage, is the likely cause of failure of both towers. However, it is possible that a storey on only one side of the South Tower initially collapsed, resulting in the "skewed" failure of the entire tower.

While the ways the two towers fell were slightly different, the basic cause is similar for both - a large number of columns were destroyed on impact, and the remaining structure was gradually weakened by the heat of the fire. Not much significance should be taken from the fact that one tower fell in 45 minutes and the other in 90 minutes.

The gigantic dynamic impact forces caused by the huge mass of the falling structure landing on the floors below is very much greater than the static load they were designed to resist.

Other Theories?





This section added 14 January 2006

This website generates many queries from people in response to some of the other theories that are put forward relating to the collapse - namely that it was a controlled explosion.

The initial impact/further weakening by fire reasoning is based on uncontestable knowledge about the behaviour of structures in general, and the weakening of steel under fire conditions, plus video footage of the events and examination of the steel afterwards. The official FEMA report written by engineering experts came to this conclusion based on the evidence.

However, should additional evidence come to light that supports a different theory, the author is willing to reassess his views.

The fire wasn't hot enough to melt the steel
There has never been a claim that the steel melted in the fire before the buildings collapsed, however the fire would have been very hot. Even though the steel didnt melt, the type of temperatures in the fire would have roughly halved its strength.

There would have been variations in the distribution of the temperature both in place in time. There are photos that show people in the areas opened up by the impact, so it obviously wasnt too hot when those photos were taken, but this is not to say that other parts of the building, further inside were not hotter. In addition, to make a reasonable conclusion from these photos, it would be important to know when they were taken. It might be possible that just after the impact the area wasnt very hot, but as the fire took hold the area got hotter.

The way the building collapsed must have been caused by explosions
One demolition expert on the day of the collapse said it looked like implosion but this is not very strong evidence. Implosion firstly requires a lot of explosives placed in strategic areas all around the building. When and how was this explosive placed in the building without anyone knowing about it. Second, implosion required more than just explosives. Demolition experts spend weeks inside a derelict building planning an event. Many of the beams are cut through by about 90% so that the explosion only has to break a small bit of steel. In this state the building is highly dangerous, and there is no way such a prepared building could still be running day to day like WTC was.

Why did the building fall so quickly?
The buildings did fall quickly - almost (but not exactly) at the same speed as if there was no resistance. Shouldn't the floors below have slowed it down? The huge dynamic loads due to the very large momentum of the upper floors falling were so great that they smashed through the lower floors very quickly. The columns were not designed to carry these huge loads and they provided little resistance.

What about World Trade Center 7?
I have not studied WTC in any great detail and cannot offer any theories on its collapse mechanism. In the chaos of the day, little attention was paid to WTC7, so there is less evidence available on the damage it sustained before it collapsed. However, some questions that you may want to ponder ...
* While it did not receive any direct impact form the planes, how much debris hit at as the main towers collapsed and what damage did it cause?
* To what extent (if any) did the shock or vibrations caused by the collapse of WTC1 & 2 affect the integrity of WTC7?
* Did any unseen damage to the WTC7 foundations occur in the collapse of WTC 1 & 2?
* Did any of the fire suppression systems in WTC7 function?


The author respect people's right to question theories, but at the present time the author does not believe there is enough evidence for him to change his views on this incident.
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Old 08-16-2006, 09:06 PM   #65 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by roundhead View Post
and you are ignoring the fact they were designed to be hit by a FULLY LOADED 707...hint fully loaded 707...ie 25,000 gallons of fuel...not the 10,000 gallons the tower planes had onboard...and dont try and tell me a 707 is a dinky plane..there sizes are very similar..

and you seem to ignore the project managers qquote i cited earlier..they would do anything to the towers

so here you have a building designed to withstand 140mph winds(more stress than the planes would have made)and the guy who built them teling us the planes would be nothing in the scope of damage to make them come down...pretty convincing to me
Roundhead. Here is a direct quote from the firm who designed the WTC and Les Robertson the DESIGNER OF THE WTC.

http://www.caddigest.com/subjects/wt...ct/council.htm

"Les Robertson, a structural engineer who participated in the original design of the World Trade Center and former chairman of the Council, has his offices in New York's financial district. He was, however, in Hong Kong at the time of the attack. On Thursday we received an email from Les. In part, it states, 'Yes, fire brought down the towers, but the structural integrity created by the engineers allowed perhaps thousands of persons to evacuate the building prior to the fire-induced collapse.'

He DOES NOT believe that the towers should have stood after the attacks. And in fact they DID withstand the impact of the planes just NOT THE RESULTING FIRES.
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Old 08-16-2006, 10:20 PM   #66 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by lars View Post
Roundhead. Here is a direct quote from the firm who designed the WTC and Les Robertson the DESIGNER OF THE WTC.

http://www.caddigest.com/subjects/wt...ct/council.htm

"Les Robertson, a structural engineer who participated in the original design of the World Trade Center and former chairman of the Council, has his offices in New York's financial district. He was, however, in Hong Kong at the time of the attack. On Thursday we received an email from Les. In part, it states, 'Yes, fire brought down the towers, but the structural integrity created by the engineers allowed perhaps thousands of persons to evacuate the building prior to the fire-induced collapse.'

He DOES NOT believe that the towers should have stood after the attacks. And in fact they DID withstand the impact of the planes just NOT THE RESULTING FIRES.
Ah, at last some sanity to this whole bizarre theory counter theory.

The conspiracy nuts focus so much on fire. "A fire couldn't do this or do that". Not many folks consider the concussion of the blast from the exploding plane as it impacted and plowed into the towers. There's no telling how much internal structural damage was done by aircraft parts flying all through the impact area. Perhaps an engine cowling ripped through some internal beams, twisting and torqueing all its contact points. Or a hunk of wing or fuselage ripping through a couple of floors spreading the damage and providing an expanded area for the inferno to feed through.

Who knows. I'm shocked that the conspiracy society didn't pin the notion of "setting explosives" on the firefighters who entered the buildings.

What bothers me are all the attacks on the military for supposedly "not doing ther job and preventing the tragic events from happening". That is an ignorant charge by people who have no knowledge of how and what the military trains to do. These attacks were outside the box of our military's mission. It's an insult to the good men and women of our armed services who responded swiftly that day and I was damn proud to have been working with them that night.
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Old 08-16-2006, 10:33 PM   #67 (permalink)
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Who knows. I'm shocked that the conspiracy society didn't pin the notion of "setting explosives" on the firefighters who entered the buildings.
Relative to some of the theories posited, this seems rather logical. Maybe that is why the nuts haven't tried it.
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Old 08-17-2006, 09:45 AM   #68 (permalink)
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GEEZ...what a bunch of hogwash


firstly,the reason the firefighters had went up to floor 78 in one of the towers(forget which)was because they were sure it WASNT going to collapse...they stated that two hose teams could knock out the fires,and that they werent very intense......
That guy from Sydney should be shot..his comments parrot the 9/11 commisions statements...which...untrue..state that the towers had a "hollow steel core"they didnt,they had 47 massive steel colums which made up the core(note not one word of this "truth"in that guys statement)...dont believe me,there are tons of pictures on the internet showing the construction of the towers and models of them...omitting the existance of these massive beams says alot about that guys credence.

remember that the second tower to be hit was dealt only a glancing blow,and the majority of the fuel was burned up "outside"the tower....and it fell in only 56 minutes..(even the commision said it was burnt up within 10 minutes)
does anybody know what a heat sink is...its when you have a large piece of metal.heat one part of it...the rest of the metal wicks off the heat applied at a given point and spreads it out....the likelyhood of a massive steel skeleton like in the towers being severely weakened by fairly minor fires(at most 10 minutes of kerosene burning)in under an hour is scant,at best.
remember that NIST built models,and couldnt duplicate a collapse..and as reported in the commision report...tested 196 pieces of steel in the towers,and in only 3 of them found where temps had exceeded 250 degrees...

lets get scientific...structural steel melts at 2800 degrees...in a perfect world,a hydrocarbon fire can only approach 1500 degrees(ie propane torch/diffuser flame)the towers fires were oxygen starved hence the billowing black smoke,and were way less intense than 1500 degrees......so in 56 minutes you are gonna believe fires that a firefighting team stated could be put out with 2 hose teams were hot enough,long lasting enough to severely weaken structural steel...i dont...its seems NIST didnt either..as i stated,only 3 pieces they looked at even exceeded 250 degrees
the "hollow core column myth"is o