tOfficial WTC Conspiracy Thread

[Armenian]

There are two things that must be assumed in order for these conspiracy theory's to be true: 1) There are individuals in our government that are intelligent enough to coordinate such an event. 2) Our government is able to keep such an operation, a secret. Neither of these are the case as we have seen in the botching of the situation in Iraq. And secondly, the constant leaking of classified information as in the case of the warrentless spying fiasco.

[Ybob]

Originally Posted by Armenian

There are two things that must be assumed in order for these conspiracy theory's to be true: 1) There are individuals in our government that are intelligent enough to coordinate such an event. 2) Our government is able to keep such an operation, a secret. Neither of these are the case as we have seen in the botching of the situation in Iraq. And secondly, the constant leaking of classified information as in the case of the warrentless spying fiasco.

The botching of Iraq is just part of the plan. A ******* smoke screen. You think Bush is dumb but he is really just that smart. He is an evil genius.

[Roger Waters]

Originally Posted by Ybob

The botching of Iraq is just part of the plan. A ******* smoke screen. You think Bush is dumb but he is really just that smart. He is an evil genius.

[lars]

Roundhead,
http://www.popularmechanics.com/scie...e/1227842.html

I suggest you read this. It goes through point by point on how the 9/11 attacks could not have been bomb or some other conspiracy. Please read it for your own sake.

BTW do you also believe that we never landed on the moon?
That JKF was killed by the CIA or the Mafia?
That the holocaust is a myth?

[mitch cumstein]

Originally Posted by Ybob

The botching of Iraq is just part of the plan. A ******* smoke screen. You think Bush is dumb but he is really just that smart. He is an evil genius.

actually, its cheney and rumsfeld who are the real brains behind this operation. bush is their puppet and salesperson. they needed a good 'ol boy that the american idiot could relate to and rally behind. i am beginning to think nothing with this administration is an accident. all carefully orchestrated.

[greed is good]

imho....

This thread exemplifies, why the center/left continues to lose national elections. The far left simply can not be taken seriously, and they drag the middle down with them.

I wish it were not so, but it appears that this is the reality some choose to live in.

[mitch cumstein]

Originally Posted by lars

Roundhead,
http://www.popularmechanics.com/scie...e/1227842.html

I suggest you read this. It goes through point by point on how the 9/11 attacks could not have been bomb or some other conspiracy. Please read it for your own sake.

BTW do you also believe that we never landed on the moon?
That JKF was killed by the CIA or the Mafia?
That the holocaust is a myth?

i just read the entire thing.....what i'm wondering is why they didn't bother to explain how both world trade centers collapsed in under 10 seconds. i'm still waiting for an explanation as to how there was absolutely NO resistance from the floors below as the buildings collapsed. to me, that is the fishiest aspect of this whole saga. that, and what was the big hurry to clean the site up, and why was none of the major debris stored as evidence (you know, so independent forensics experts could study it)?

also.....why haven't we gone back to the moon, especially in light of the major technological advances that have come about in the last 37 years? i'm not making any assertions, just wondering and need real answers....like the PM article talked about....you know, "healthy skepticism"

[Fletch]

The Government is always the "real" perpetrator of every major tragic event.

Just like it is difficult for people to come to grips with the fact that one crazed man could murder the President of the United States, it is also difficult to deal with the fact that 20 men with box cutters attacked our country on our own soil and killed 3000 people. The event seems too significant and too tragic for such a relatively simple explanation. Psychologically, many people deal with this fact by finding someone else to blame. The Government is the easiest scapegoat because no matter what explanation they give, they're The Government, so they MUST be lying. Everyone knows you can't trust The Government.

Just like your mind wants to see the face of the devil in the WTC smoke, it also wants to identify logical, perfect explanations for large scale, tragic events even when logical, perfect explanations simply do not exist.

[DeHannen]

Originally Posted by mitch cumstein

i just read the entire thing.....what i'm wondering is why they didn't bother to explain how both world trade centers collapsed in under 10 seconds. i'm still waiting for an explanation as to how there was absolutely NO resistance from the floors below as the buildings collapsed. to me, that is the fishiest aspect of this whole saga. that, and what was the big hurry to clean the site up, and why was none of the major debris stored as evidence (you know, so independent forensics experts could study it)?

also.....why haven't we gone back to the moon, especially in light of the major technological advances that have come about in the last 37 years? i'm not making any assertions, just wondering and need real answers....like the PM article talked about....you know, "healthy skepticism"

As a structural engineer, I can say with certainty that no multi-story structure could resist the MOMENTUM of a third of the height of the building collapsing from above. In laymans terms, each floor framing system can support roughly 200 pounds per square foot. If you had 20 floors collapse above, the dead weight alone would account for about 1000 pounds per square foot. That doesn't even include the increase in impact force from the floor dead weight accelerating. So do you think 200 psf of resisting framing could stop 1000 psf of dead weight concrete and steel, accelerating at 32 ft per second squared?

As far as I know all of the WTC debris is still at a NJ landfill. ASCE did a forensic report on the steel used in the building and how it performed.

We haven't gone back to the moon because there has been NO economic advantage to do so.

[Fletch]

Originally Posted by roundhead

That one is real easy.A study was done not to long ago(2004)about this. A group of experts took about 5 or 6 most commonly used cell phones up in a cessna at 4000 feet(at 100 knots),they tried various calls from the phones,sent and recieved,and found at 4000 feet calls were sucessfull less than 1% of the time
at 8000 feet it was way less sucessfull,way less than 1%.and this was in a cessna,with more glass than a jetliner would have,and flying not at 32000 feet.in fact a group of 9/11 people over a period of time tried making calls while in flight and documented the success,the phones only worked at best right before landing,and only once in a while then..this was using better phones in all cases than what 2001 had to offer..in short,no cell will work at 30000 feet at 500 mph,and if it did,it would be for a second maybe...

this was called project Achilles,and is well documented on the net.
Hardly any of the "conversations"lasted more than a few sentences,except one,and its very,very cheezy.A guy calls his mom and gives her is full first and last name..etc,etc...read about it,very interesting stuff
I work kinda out in the country,but have a cell tower about 500 feet from my office,i call my wife sometimes when i leave,but by the time i get 4 or 5 miles away i loose reception untill i get up closer to Battle Creek.
A plane at 32000 feet is already,what,6 miles from the ground and traveling 500 or more mph,you honestly think you could hold a call under those circumstances

This is absolute bunk. Clearly these "experts" ( ) have never been on a private jet, since cell phone calls are not restricted on such flights and work perfectly. Idiots.

In fact, planes are a prime place to make a cell phone call from because cell waves travel in nearly straight lines. From the sky, there is nothing to impede the signal from traveling directly to a tower below. The only flaw in the system is the speed in which you travel from one network to another.

This is the sort of thing that makes the conspiracy theorists look incredibly bad. They claim they are educating themselves, but in their rush to reach their predetermined conclusion of a conspiracy they'll believe anything - no matter how ridiculous.

CELL PHONES WORK ON AIRPLANES. ACTORS DID NOT MAKE THE CALLS TO THESE PEOPLE'S FAMILIES ON 9/11 FROM SOME GOVERNMENT BUNKER IN COLORADO.

[Wally Fairway]

Originally Posted by mitch cumstein

also.....why haven't we gone back to the moon, especially in light of the major technological advances that have come about in the last 37 years? i'm not making any assertions, just wondering and need real answers....like the PM article talked about....you know, "healthy skepticism"

I'll take this one (and I rarely post on WH) -

the overall purpose of the early space program was not space exploration, rather it was a part of the Cold War. The Cold War is over, and now NASA must justify the program from a scientific standpoint.

The early program was quite successful in developing and refining launch capabilities, and led to the population of the Northern Plains with many silos of very reliable launch vehicles.

[wingfanjim]

Originally Posted by Wally Fairway

I'll take this one (and I rarely post on WH) -

the overall purpose of the early space program was not space exploration, rather it was a part of the Cold War. The Cold War is over, and now NASA must justify the program from a scientific standpoint.

The early program was quite successful in developing and refining launch capabilities, and led to the population of the Northern Plains with many silos of very reliable launch vehicles.

So you are saying the early Space Program was just a PR front to spend the billions it took to develop our arsenal of ICMBs?

[DeHannen]

Originally Posted by Fletch

it is also difficult to deal with the fact that 20 men with box cutters attacked our country on our own soil and killed 3000 people. The event seems too significant and too tragic for such a relatively simple explanation.

Actually, I believe, this was the only way that OBL could be successful, by keeping the numbers of people in the know small, it reduced the possiblility of knowledge getting out to the intelligence community. It is rumored that some of the hijackers didn't even know they were going to fly into buildings.

For the record, this thread would be completely laughable if not for the fact that 3000 innocent people died that day.

[Donnyrotten]

Originally Posted by lars

Roundhead,
http://www.popularmechanics.com/scie...e/1227842.html

I suggest you read this. It goes through point by point on how the 9/11 attacks could not have been bomb or some other conspiracy. Please read it for your own sake.

BTW do you also believe that we never landed on the moon?
That JKF was killed by the CIA or the Mafia?
That the holocaust is a myth?

that popular mechanix article,written by a crony of bush's, son(do a little checking)actually really hurts the governments case.It is full of lies and half truths,and addresses"select issues"and avoids the most embarrasing ones.It is flat full of holes and lies,and has been generally discredited.

lets look at some facts....try and dispute a single one of these..

1.The government refuses to release any pentagon footage,they confiscated it,but wont show it...dont you think they would show it if it showed a 757 hitting the pentagon

2.the 9/11 commision ignored and failed to even mention world trade center 7 falling..why..it was a cia and NY command center..it came down in 6 seconds..freefall speed,with only fires burning on two floors(7 and 12)

3.prior to 9/11.no steel frame high rise in history has ever came down because of fire,yet 3 did that day,all at near freefall speed,in their own footprint,and in the case of the second tower,with very small fires and in less than an hour.(Firefighters arrived on the 78th floor and reported 2 hose teams could put out the small fires in the second tower,these statements and many others were tied up in courts until recently by the government,these firefighters sure didnt think the tower was going to collapse,or they wouldnt have gone up there).

4.the military routinely intercepts planes(generally about 100 or so a year)and usually within 10 minutes,but on 9/11,none of the 4 planes was intercepted at all...

5.the pentagon is the best defended building on the planet,has 5 missile batteries on site,yet did not stop the plane from hitting it(not that there was a plane)

6.Photo's,taken right after the pentagon was hit show no wreckage,the hole was to small for a plane to have made that kind of damage,and several eyewitnesses saw no plane pieces any larger than you could hold in your hand....where is the 757 at.But yet they got fingerprints of all but several of the dead

7.Bush,at 9:05,after hearing the second tower was hit,stayed in the classroom for another 1/2 hour,the secret service left him be,he had to assume at that point he could have been a target,yet risked himself and the kids in the school(he claims he wanted to project calm..what a crock)..at 9:54 when his plane took off,it did so without fighter escort,even though by this time even the Pentagon had been hit...why,unless he KNEW he wasnt a target.

8.The towers show 10 signs common with a controlled demolition..pulverized concrete,free fall collapse,numerous eye witness accounts hearing explosions,seismic data consistant with charges placed in the basements of the towers...the governments hurrying to remove all metal from the towers(in itself a criminal act)
9.no evidence of a plane crash in penn,eyewitness accounts say it looked like a 15 by 30 hole that had been dug out,with nothing in it..no blood,no body parts,plane parts...

10.none of the 19 "terrorists "appear on the flight manifests,in fact,according to several European papers,7 or 8 are still alive and have been interviewed

11.Kerosene fire has been proven to not create enough heat to melt or even distort structural steel,no where near hot enough,and in fact,windows right below the impacts werent even blown out(fires werent very hot)and remember the lady standing in the hole,trying to get help,she wasnt burned,but yet the fire was claimed to be hot enough to melt steel???
12.tell tale sighs of squibs(very apparent on videos)below the impact area just before collapse.
13.1300 degree steel,pulled out weeks after 9/11,and well documented,from the basements of all three buildings..kerosene,burning for only about 10 minutes in both towers(even the commision says this)sure didnt create weeks long heat of that magnitude,but thermite sure would.

14.Mineta's testimony to the commision,added to by a white house photographer,stating cheney was in the sit room giving orders by 9:20,when Mineta got there,but the commision says he didnt arrive until 9:58,a number of reasons why this is extremely important,and was an outright lie by the commision
15.Bush's foot dragging and no willingness to testify on the record,or even by himself as regards the events of that morning.Well documented he did everything he could to prevent an investigation,and had it not been for extreme pressure from victims families,would not have allowed it to happen..the challenger disaster commision convened within 3 weeks


all this stuff is irrefutable,the government has avoided it,and the mainstream press has failed to address any of it..not to mention Bush's little bother Marvin,and their cousin Wirth Walker were both high ups in the company in charge of security for the towers.
Up untill 2 weeks before 9/11 12 hour shifts were running with bomb sniffing dogs in the towers.2 weeks before this stopped.And a number of reports say maintenance workers had the elevators shut down for maintenance the weekend before 9/11.

No matter what,this stuff needs to be independantly addressed,and hasnt been..

[DeHannen]

Originally Posted by Fletch

This is absolute bunk. This is the sort of thing that makes the conspiracy theorists look incredibly bad. They claim they are educating themselves, but in their rush to reach their predetermined conclusion of a conspiracy they'll believe anything - no matter how ridiculous.

CELL PHONES WORK ON AIRPLANES. ACTORS DID NOT MAKE THE CALLS TO THESE PEOPLE'S FAMILIES ON 9/11 FROM SOME GOVERNMENT BUNKER IN COLORADO.

You surprise me.

[Fletch]

Originally Posted by roundhead

that popular mechanix article,written by a crony of bush's, son

Of COURSE it was....

[Wally Fairway]

Originally Posted by wingfanjim

So you are saying the early Space Program was just a PR front to spend the billions it took to develop our arsenal of ICMBs?

Depends on how you define "front" - but sure the USSR and USA used the manned space program as a part of the development of their launch capabilities.....why do you think China is working on a manned space program?

[DeputyMSU]

Originally Posted by roundhead

the pentagon is the best defended building on the planet,has 5 missile batteries on site,yet did not stop the plane from hitting it(not that there was a plane)

Roundhead,
I don't care if you believe a government conspiracy occurred, anything is possible. But to deny a large jet hit the Pentagon on 9/11 is laughable. There are hundreds, or thousands of eye witnesses who saw a large jet hit the Pentagon that day.
You see the location of the Pentagon being so near major arteries of Washington DC, and the timing of the attacks (early am....just after rush hour) meant that hundreds or thousands of people saw the jet from their cars with their own eyes.

[wingfanjim]

Originally Posted by Wally Fairway

Depends on how you define "front" - but sure the USSR and USA used the manned space program as a part of the development of their launch capabilities.....why do you think China is working on a manned space program?

by front I mean, if we do this cool thing that the public will be interested in, then they won't mind so much that we are also piggybacking all this research money we are spending getting into space towards what we really want to do (build missiles to fight the Cold War). I'm not saying the government did anything wrong. I'm just saying that the space program had a way of capturing the public's attention and interest in a way that a straight up ICBM testing program never would have.

I thought China already had ICBMs?

[Fletch]

Originally Posted by DeHannen

You surprise me.

This isn't a Republican or Democrat issue, as much as people like to make any issue a partisan one. This is an issue of whether or not the facts point towards the United States Government either 1) planning and acting out the murder of 3000 of its own people or 2) knowingly allowing those murders to take place. As I said above, I think that the conspiracy theorists so desperately want to believe that a "bigger, better" explanation for 9/11 exists that they're willing to take massive, in many cases idiotic, leaps to connect dots that just don't connect. I.E. - cell phones supposedly not working from airplanes. As you can see, Roundhead fully believes this "study" that a bunch of clearly biased 9/11 conspiracy theorists supposedly undertook on their own. Pure bunk.

The Government, as evil as it may be, did not plan nor willingly look the other way on 9/11. They did not demolish the Twin Towers so we could go to war with Iraq. They did not bomb the Pentagon and then claim a plane hit it. They did not hire actors to make cell phone calls to the families of the Flight 93 passengers.

Now, did George W. Bush wrongfully use 9/11 to wage his war? Absolutely. But that decision was made after 9/11, not before it.

[Fletch]

Originally Posted by DeputyMSU

hundreds or thousands of people saw the jet from their cars with their own eyes.

Those were actors and CIA agents.