How To Get To Heaven When You Die

[Island of misfit toys]

Originally Posted by Foxbat

How was it irresponsible or different from the OP? Both feel that there are trivial and technical details on which your afterlife fate hinges.

One feels that the pledge to ask Christ to be the Saviour is the determinant, while the latter feels that's totally worthless unless you pour some water over yourself in addition. Both said something because they felt hell was in the future if they didn't speak.

Who's delusional enough to think people will make enormous life changing belief changes based on some spammer's rant anyway, when most people didn't even part with $20 for those X10 cameras back in the day?

Interesting you should pick my post to respond to since you don't seem to have a dog in the fight. That's ok, I'm just happy when anybody pays attention to me. Religious Christians are everywhere, get around people who truly have hearts for the lost. You see a lot of quibbling and trifling amongst American Christians that you don't find in many other places. Few things are more awesome than someone who truly lives both for the Lord and for the lost.

[GRR Spartan]

Gosh, I thought you took I 80 to Heaven in Iowa. A least in baseball season.

Because in the big inning God created heaven and earth.

[Island of misfit toys]

Originally Posted by GRR Spartan

Gosh, I thought you took I 80 to Heaven in Iowa. A least in baseball season.

Because in the big inning God created heaven and earth.

Actually, he created the Heavens and the Earth. But, that's for another time.

[goState18]

God gives ALL a chance at the kingdom of heaven, but not all can be baptized. Christs great gift of forgivness requires only one thing, belief. Belief that Christ can and did forgive your sins and die on the cross for your sins.

[Island of misfit toys]

Originally Posted by goState18

God gives ALL a chance at the kingdom of heaven, but not all can be baptized. Christs great gift of forgivness requires only one thing, belief. Belief that Christ can and did forgive your sins and die on the cross for your sins.

That is a good post.

[Druidblue]

God is beyond our thinking powers. Mankind feels this truth as a frustration, and so adorns the Infinite with finite trappings... hollow and transitory.

As men, we can no more easily grasp infinity than we can the enigma "what lies beyond space?" or "what existed before time?" The solution is simple- the answer is the same for men in all ages of our history: we cannot have an answer. Just as we who are physical beings cannot comprehend Infinity, so are we likewise unable to "see" God- he who dwells within the Infinite.

The greatest folly of man is in thinking they know what God is or desires.

"For as much as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, silver, stone or any image given by art, device or the imagination of man."
~ The Apostle Paul

"When we try to reach the Infinite and the Divine by means of mere abstract terms or images, are we even now better than children trying to place a ladder against the sky?"
~ Aristotle

There is no God but what cannot be comprehended
There is nothing that cannot be comprehended, but what is not conceivable
There is nothing not conceivable but what is immeasurable
There is nothing immeasurable but God
There is no God but what is not conceivable.
~Bardic Enigma


Therefore, the truly wise are those who know they cannot know what God is or desires, and that any aspect of knowing God, the Infinite or the Grand Design is not possible by mortal man.

[Island of misfit toys]

Originally Posted by Druidblue

God is beyond our thinking powers. Mankind feels this truth as a frustration, and so adorns the Infinite with finite trappings... hollow and transitory.

As men, we can no more easily grasp infinity than we can the enigma "what lies beyond space?" or "what existed before time?" The solution is simple- the answer is the same for men in all ages of our history: we cannot have an answer. Just as we who are physical beings cannot comprehend Infinity, so are we likewise unable to "see" God- he who dwells within the Infinite.

The greatest folly of man is in thinking they know what God is or desires.

"For as much as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, silver, stone or any image given by art, device or the imagination of man."
~ The Apostle Paul

"When we try to reach the Infinite and the Divine by means of mere abstract terms or images, are we even now better than children trying to place a ladder against the sky?"
~ Aristotle

There is no God but what cannot be comprehended
There is nothing that cannot be comprehended, but what is not conceivable
There is nothing not conceivable but what is immeasurable
There is nothing immeasurable but God
There is no God but what is not conceivable.
~Bardic Enigma


Therefore, the truly wise are those who know they cannot know what God is or desires, and that any aspect of knowing God, the Infinite or the Grand Design is not possible by mortal man.

Druid, your thoughts are entirely centered on man, how can man lay hold of God. What you leave out is the possibility that God himself can initiate the contact with man and reveal himself in degrees and means of his own choosing. And, if God chooses to do this, and we sit on our heels waxing philosophic about how we can't know him, even though he is trying to reveal himself...get the picture?

[turd_herder]

Originally Posted by '86

Druid, your thoughts are entirely centered on man, how can man lay hold of God. What you leave out is the possibility that God himself can initiate the contact with man and reveal himself in degrees and means of his own choosing. And, if God chooses to do this, and we sit on our heels waxing philosophic about how we can't know him, even though he is trying to reveal himself...get the picture?

Why would God choose to reveal himself to you or Bee, but not to the entire Pacific Rim sans the Phillipines and the Asian subcontinent?

I submit it is your thoughts that are entirely "self-centered". The Creator somehow finds you significant enough to carry on a "personal" relationship with you while finding millions in sub-Saharan Africa insignificant enough that he won't allow them the luxury of parents who'll live long enough to be remembered.

If Jesus died for me, of what relevance is it that I must believe that he did for that sacrifice to be effective? What if I only believe because I'm afraid of Hell? Does believing out of selfish reasons somehow render my belief insufficient? What if I believe, but I also believe that God and Jesus have physical bodies, that Jesus visited North America after his resurrection, and that Joseph Smith was a prophet called by God?

According to Paul, if I believe but also believe in keeping the Jewish law, I am following "a different gospel." Is that what Jesus revealed to Paul, or did Paul oppose that form of "Christianity" because adult circumcision was as hard a sell 2,000 years ago as it would be today? Why would Jesus keep the Law himself but then tell Paul that it was not only no longer necessary, but, in fact, a damnable offense?

Reading Paul's letters as well as those attributed to him in context, as opposed to parsing a sentence here or there, is much more telling about the birth of Christianity than reading the sanitized version contained in the Acts of the Apostles. Unfortunately, most Christian churches I've attended or been a member of over the years prefer to pick out verses that support their own peculiar theology. In that regard, at least, Joseph Smith was right.

[Island of misfit toys]

Originally Posted by turd_herder

Why would God choose to reveal himself to you or Stephen Bee, but not to the entire Pacific Rim sans the Phillipines and the Asian subcontinent?

I submit it is your thoughts that are entirely "self-centered". The Creator somehow finds you significant enough to carry on a "personal" relationship with you while finding millions in sub-Saharan Africa insignificant enough that he won't allow them the luxury of parents who'll live long enough to be remembered.

If Jesus died for me, of what relevance is it that I must believe that he did for that sacrifice to be effective? What if I only believe because I'm afraid of Hell? Does believing out of selfish reasons somehow render my belief insufficient? What if I believe, but I also believe that God and Jesus have physical bodies, that Jesus visited North America after his resurrection, and that Joseph Smith was a prophet called by God?

According to Paul, if I believe but also believe in keeping the Jewish law, I am following "a different gospel." Is that what Jesus revealed to Paul, or did Paul oppose that form of "Christianity" because adult circumcision was as hard a sell 2,000 years ago as it would be today? Why would Jesus keep the Law himself but then tell Paul that it was not only no longer necessary, but, in fact, a damnable offense?

Reading Paul's letters as well as those attributed to him in context, as opposed to parsing a sentence here or there, is much more telling about the birth of Christianity than reading the sanitized version contained in the Acts of the Apostles. Unfortunately, most Christian churches I've attended or been a member of over the years prefer to pick out verses that support their own peculiar theology. In that regard, at least, Joseph Smith was right.

We can debate the extent to which I'm getting God's messages straight, but the fact remains, if there is a God, it's entirely his perogative whether or not to turn a thought toward us, whether or not to communicate with us, how he'd communicate with us, and how much of himself he'd reveal to us. Personally, I have a hard time working with a model of 'God the Father' limited to human form. Further, I think of Jesus and the Father as being distinct beings and that can be the quickest way to catch hell from religious Christians. But just to do a little CYA and to try not to get off on some lame sidetrack, I do not think of the spotless lamb of God, firstborn from the dead, ruler of Heaven and Earth, as just another man.

Whether I'm right or wrong, it doesn't seem to me that men ought to put limitations on God which is just what you are doing when you come up with some deep enlightenment of the order that men cannot know God.

The gospel spread West from Jerusalem. Due in part to the labors of men like the Jesuits and the missionary Hudson Taylor, the gospel has now taken firm root in China. The house churches of China have seized the mantle and the momentum to see that the gospel completes the journey and spreads through Western Asia and the Middle East back to Jerusalem. They are sending out missionaries even now.






Korea has a large Christian population and the largest church in the world. I've met African Christians and they fast and pray for us to be free of materialism and carnality. The gospel has swept through the Americas, including recent, massive revivals in Argentina, but it didn't originate here and it isn't our exclusive domain.

Listen, you ought to embrace this belief thing!!! It cuts through all kinds of advantages of intellect and affluence, why in the world would you criticise the wisdom of the Bible in leveling the playing field!? The criterion of belief is an awesome thing of justice and beauty! I believe it's Jude that specifically instructs us to save some with fear. Now, there's a difference between a spirit of fear and just awesome, bracing reality. No doubt Jude refers to this latter.

Circumcision is not a damnable offense, not at all. Denying Christ (the actual, living person of Christ) and teaching people to subsitute religious forms will get you in a whole lot of trouble, however. Are you personally familiar with the Holy Spirit which was not made available to people en masse prior to the outpouring on the day of Pentecost? A new order of things is set and it is highly evidenced through the Holy Spirit which is taught in the Bible but is also manifest big as, well really big in the lives of the faithful. Don't just give me musings about the Holy Spirit, life in the Holy Spirit is it's own certitude.

I haven't studied Mormonism. I've visited the temple in Salt Lake City, I've spoken with Mormons and I've read/heard a little about the Joseph Smith-Brigham Young saga. But, I'm not one of these guys who's just going to preach what my church preaches without having any actual understanding myself. Guys that do that stuff bug me probably as much as they bug you. I can only pass on Mormonism and maybe BillOGoods (is he even still around) or another can discuss that with you.

I'm not sure I hit on everything that is important to you but I'm good for this, we can do it once, twice and do it again. Jesus is the most beautiful, most awesome one ever, really.

[Champ]

Just cannot imagine what is wrong with most of you.

I like (mostly) lurking on this board because of young, limber minds.

The whole god thing is absolutely archaic and symtamatic of low self esteem, dependency problems, lack of confidence, marginal education/intelligence and a never ending need for the nipple. GADS! Grow up.

Jeez, what is wrong with you? Someone rewrites some ancient text over and over, endless variations, and you wanna BELIEVE that it is the path to a better life after this one....NUTS!!!!!

This is it: live it, love it and forget it - done...fini. Got it? There will be no test later...

[turd_herder]

How does Bee believe that not being baptized will keep you out of Heaven but lusting after Gwen Stefani meets the WWJD threshold? Bee, does your Bible contain all 66 books or only the portions of particular sentences that bolster your odd theology?

[Island of misfit toys]

Originally Posted by Champ

Just cannot imagine what is wrong with most of you.

I like (mostly) lurking on this board because of young, limber minds. Read: I'm a chickenhawk

The whole god thing is absolutely archaic and symtamatic of low self esteem, dependency problems, lack of confidence, marginal education/intelligence and a never ending need for the nipple. GADS! Grow up.

Jeez, what is wrong with you? Someone rewrites some ancient text over and over, endless variations, and you wanna BELIEVE that it is the path to a better life after this one....NUTS!!!!!

This is it: live it, love it and forget it - done...fini. Got it? There will be no test later...

You mean like,

"Whoa, you don't have to die an' go to heaven
Or hang around to be born again
Just tune in to what this place has got to offer
'Cause we may never be here again. Ow!"

Wow, now that you mention it, Van Halen was right. Who needs this stupid Bible, I need some Jack.

[xfrodobagginsx]

While you CAN have the "Best....of....both....worlds" it's not in the sense that you may think. Becomming a Christian IS having the best of both worlds. You get to live better here, then you get to go to heaven. BTW Christians can drink too, we just don't get wasted, at least we aren't supposed to. God doesn't want to take all the fun out of life as many non-Christians think. He wants us to have a better quality of life. Over indulgence brings hart ache and pain and God is against that. That really is the key to Christian living...but you don't BECOME a Christian that way. You can only BECOME a Christian by trusting in what Jesus Christ did on the cross to pay for your sins. By turning to Him from your sins and accepting what He did to pay for them and accepting Him as your personal Lord and Savior. If you read this first post and pray that prayer, you can be saved and will go to heaven when you die. It is a win-win situation.

[Champ]

Originally Posted by '86

You mean like,

"Whoa, you don't have to die an' go to heaven
Or hang around to be born again
Just tune in to what this place has got to offer
'Cause we may never be here again. Ow!"

Wow, now that you mention it, Van Halen was right. Who needs this stupid Bible, I need some Jack.

Chickenhawk?...no, Chickenman, before you were born. Let me save you google time: Chickenman AO.

Anyway, nice diversion, but no real substance. Point is, rather than getting all wound up in the bible, you would be far better off reading, and following, the Red Cross manual ( I was going to say the Boy Scout Manual, but why give you another free shot?).

Figure out how you are gonna live this life - the one and only - and do it.

Again, "Jeez, what is wrong with you?" You are bright enough to throw a red herring, surely you are bright enough to see one coming at you...

Hey, to a point, bible and religion...all ok, in concept. It is just the blind belief in nonsense - life evrerafter, invisible sky daddy rules our lives, eternal life, divine destiny/intervention.....C'mon. Where you goin' with that?

The deal is, religion was organized to established the family unit, civil interaction and control sex - why was the virgin mary a virgin? Because sex was dirty....YIKES.

All religion is based on you are bad, but if you follow these rules,you will be rewarded in the after life - 77 virgins sound familiar?

Can't you see the plot here? Oops, forgot "blind faith"...

Fire away...

[Island of misfit toys]

Originally Posted by Champ

Chickenhawk?...no, Chickenman, before you were born. Let me save you google time: Chickenman AO.

Anyway, nice diversion, but no real substance. Point is, rather than getting all wound up in the bible, you would be far better off reading, and following, the Red Cross manual ( I was going to say the Boy Scout Manual, but why give you another free shot?).

Figure out how you are gonna live this life - the one and only - and do it.

Again, "Jeez, what is wrong with you?" You are bright enough to throw a red herring, surely you are bright enough to see one coming at you...

Hey, to a point, bible and religion...all ok, in concept. It is just the blind belief in nonsense - life evrerafter, invisible sky daddy rules our lives, eternal life, divine destiny/intervention.....C'mon. Where you goin' with that?

The deal is, religion was organized to established the family unit, civil interaction and control sex - why was the virgin mary a virgin? Because sex was dirty....YIKES.

All religion is based on you are bad, but if you follow these rules,you will be rewarded in the after life - 77 virgins sound familiar?

Can't you see the plot here? Oops, forgot "blind faith"...

Fire away...

I love God. He loves me. We have a relationship. You seem nice, but you're whacked. Really, I have no doubt whatsoever that God is.

Did you have a bad experience with 'religion'? If so, it's like anything else. You'll have to sort out your experiences and emotions as well as your reasonings. Really, I don't think I push the knowledge of God on people. We're all in different places. If you have no grid for God or any tolerance for belief in God, just do me the same courtesy and don't try to push that on me. What seems to be so obvious to you is obviously wrong to me. It's ok, Jesus died for you and loves you and has a future for you beyond anything you can imagine. But, if you aren't there, if you aren't hearing it, it's all good, I'm not pushing it.

Dude, this is a no ****ter. I wrote the above before I looked at your link. So, you're older than me. Viet Nam vet. I don't know your experiences of course, but I have read about some others'. Bad. Very bad. Bodies aside, It's hard to imagine the wounding that people incurred to both their minds and their emotions. Not just in Viet Nam though, in the wretched, miserable experiences of people in a variety of situations throughout time, the world over. I once stood under a bridge looking down at a leper. Stinking, filthy, emaciated man. There was one place where I could actually see his dried up bones through a big crack in his flesh. You know, on and on. The reason people fear prison so much is not the incarceration, it's being beaten on a regular basis and forced into homosexual sex. Children,...it's just unimaginable the wounding to minds and emotions that people experience and like a crushed flower how does anyone fill back out and open up and receive light and rest and feel and cry and smile and hope again? How can crushed people ever hope and love and laugh again?

One thing I found, I need salvation for myself. I need it. I can't even care about anyone else until I find life myself. I need the oasis, I need the provision, I need the whole Maslow hierarchy. If I'm suffering I can hardly care about anyone else. It doesn't do for me to question the character of God anymore than a baby could question the mother who has his milk. I'm man. I'm weak and I'm mortal. Anyone who doesn't know he is weak just has everyone including himself fooled...for a time.

But, God gives life. God is life, God has life. There is hope. There is heaven. The backdrop of this hellish world is the glory of the eternal God- can we see it? I'll take mother's milk. Bottom line, she has it and I need it. Our father in Heaven loves us. Whereas I had nothing to give to that leper but turned and walked away, my father remains and cannot walk away. Oh, I need to be better. I need to have something to give. I need to die to my selfish life and be that very conduit of Heaven that the leper needs me to be. I just need to be better. One thing, I'm better than I was. God, have me better in the future. But, God still has to see and to deal with everything that I do not, and that's almost everything.

The sick beggar dies and he's in Abraham's bosom. Neither you nor I know the next experiences of the man who dies in a car crash leaving a sobbing family behind. Have you checked out near death experiences? The realities for the dead and for the living are like night and day. Don't judge God. When does he ever not have figured out what we don't understand? This is our challenge, 'though you slay me, yet I will trust you'. Since that is the plate prepared for weak man, since that is our challenge, let's lay hold of it. I will believe in my God and I will not doubt and I discover and rediscover as I have so many times both the beauty and the regnancy of Almighty God. That's my challenge, I will not doubt. Over and over and over he causes me to rejoice in the little faithfulness I've been able to muster. Champ, I love God so much. And He loves you.

[xfrodobagginsx]

Originally Posted by Heaph

This is correct per God's Word.

It's also correct per Reality.

[Champ]

'86,

Thank you for the sentiment. I know you mean it, and that means something to me.

I want to apologize for my flip attitude toward your faith. I guess it is easy to be smug when you are convinced you are right.

In the future I think I'll stay away from religous discorse - there's still politics and sex!

[Island of misfit toys]

Originally Posted by Champ

'86,

Thank you for the sentiment. I know you mean it, and that means something to me.

I want to apologize for my flip attitude toward your faith. I guess it is easy to be smug when you are convinced you are right.

In the future I think I'll stay away from religous discorse - there's still politics and sex!

No need to be apologize. We just miss out on so much. But, I like to joust, too.

[xfrodobagginsx]

What does '86 stand for?

[Island of misfit toys]

Originally Posted by xfrodobagginsx

What does '86 stand for?

Couple things. One, it shows sometimes I'm not very imaginative and two, year of graduation.

[FishHead]

Originally Posted by Fletch

Frodo, can you share with us God's rules about homosexuality and eating shellfish?

Don't do either, pretty well defined.

[Susie Creamcheese]

Originally Posted by '86

I love God. He loves me. We have a relationship. You seem nice, but you're whacked. Really, I have no doubt whatsoever that God is.

Did you have a bad experience with 'religion'? If so, it's like anything else. You'll have to sort out your experiences and emotions as well as your reasonings. Really, I don't think I push the knowledge of God on people. We're all in different places. If you have no grid for God or any tolerance for belief in God, just do me the same courtesy and don't try to push that on me. What seems to be so obvious to you is obviously wrong to me. It's ok, Jesus died for you and loves you and has a future for you beyond anything you can imagine. But, if you aren't there, if you aren't hearing it, it's all good, I'm not pushing it.

Dude, this is a no ****ter. I wrote the above before I looked at your link. So, you're older than me. Viet Nam vet. I don't know your experiences of course, but I have read about some others'. Bad. Very bad. Bodies aside, It's hard to imagine the wounding that people incurred to both their minds and their emotions. Not just in Viet Nam though, in the wretched, miserable experiences of people in a variety of situations throughout time, the world over. I once stood under a bridge looking down at a leper. Stinking, filthy, emaciated man. There was one place where I could actually see his dried up bones through a big crack in his flesh. You know, on and on. The reason people fear prison so much is not the incarceration, it's being beaten on a regular basis and forced into homosexual sex. Children,...it's just unimaginable the wounding to minds and emotions that people experience and like a crushed flower how does anyone fill back out and open up and receive light and rest and feel and cry and smile and hope again? How can crushed people ever hope and love and laugh again?

One thing I found, I need salvation for myself. I need it. I can't even care about anyone else until I find life myself. I need the oasis, I need the provision, I need the whole Maslow hierarchy. If I'm suffering I can hardly care about anyone else. It doesn't do for me to question the character of God anymore than a baby could question the mother who has his milk. I'm man. I'm weak and I'm mortal. Anyone who doesn't know he is weak just has everyone including himself fooled...for a time.

But, God gives life. God is life, God has life. There is hope. There is heaven. The backdrop of this hellish world is the glory of the eternal God- can we see it? I'll take mother's milk. Bottom line, she has it and I need it. Our father in Heaven loves us. Whereas I had nothing to give to that leper but turned and walked away, my father remains and cannot walk away. Oh, I need to be better. I need to have something to give. I need to die to my selfish life and be that very conduit of Heaven that the leper needs me to be. I just need to be better. One thing, I'm better than I was. God, have me better in the future. But, God still has to see and to deal with everything that I do not, and that's almost everything.

The sick beggar dies and he's in Abraham's bosom. Neither you nor I know the next experiences of the man who dies in a car crash leaving a sobbing family behind. Have you checked out near death experiences? The realities for the dead and for the living are like night and day. Don't judge God. When does he ever not have figured out what we don't understand? This is our challenge, 'though you slay me, yet I will trust you'. Since that is the plate prepared for weak man, since that is our challenge, let's lay hold of it. I will believe in my God and I will not doubt and I discover and rediscover as I have so many times both the beauty and the regnancy of Almighty God. That's my challenge, I will not doubt. Over and over and over he causes me to rejoice in the little faithfulness I've been able to muster. Champ, I love God so much. And He loves you.

While I grew up going to church, catechism and the whole bit, I found the whole thing to be full of things that were incongruent or just didn't make a whole lotta sense. It wasn't a bad experience, just generally a dull and pointless one. Needless to say, God never spoke to me and praying made me feel more foolish than anything. That said, I'm always amazed at someone that is so convinced about God like you.

What is it about two people, one who can accept what can only be described as absurdity on faith, and the other who can't?

[Island of misfit toys]

Originally Posted by Susie Creamcheese

While I grew up going to church, catechism and the whole bit, I found the whole thing to be full of things that were incongruent or just didn't make a whole lotta sense. It wasn't a bad experience, just generally a dull and pointless one. Needless to say, God never spoke to me and praying made me feel more foolish than anything. That said, I'm always amazed at someone that is so convinced about God like you.

What is it about two people, one who can accept what can only be described as absurdity on faith, and the other who can't?

'Susie Creamcheese'...once again, the Urban Dictionary delivers.

Interesting post, Ms. Creamcheese . Let's go this way. A lot of people get exposure to 'religion', even the 'Christian religion', they decide it sucks and go looking for something better. And, something better can be found. 'Religion' is lifeless, oppressive and boring. At least hedonism feels good. Yet, there is a third option, and that is discovery of the living God. None of this should come as a shock to a student of the Bible, Jesus' greatest nemeses were the 'religious' leaders of his own faith.

Something constantly warring against the true knowledge of God are manmade counterfeits, acts and oblations performed in the name of God, separate from God. In the Old Testament, Jezebel and the worship of Baal represented false religion very vividly. At the time of Christ, the Jewish religion was contrary to the very object of that religion, Christ himself. And today within Protestantism and Catholicism both is all the lunacy the Devil could want.

Even so, life without God is a drag. Hedonism, humanism, none of that gets it done, either. Sure, the billionaire Donald Trump comes off as God when he renders his judgement, 'you're fired'. He can do this, he has attained- 24k gold buckles in his private jet, trade off the beautiful wife for a new model (puns everywhere, huh?) every few years. Donald Trump not your archetype, how about Richard Branson? Whoever, whatever. Ecclesiasties is a relatively short book in the Old Testament that gets into all this. The musings of a rich king and his searches for meaning. If you read it, pay attention to the phrase 'under the sun'. 'Under the sun' means life here on earth without connection to God and Heaven. The king finds all the best of everything under the sun to be vanity.

But, oooooo God, the real God, he truly is to die for. The Bible promises in Jeremiah, "you will seek me and find me when you search for me with all your heart." The Bible also teaches that God is searching for us- he definitely can be found. I don't understand all about the natures of Jesus and his Father and their relationships, few Christians do (religious Christians often think they do by reciting the results of historic creeds). But that's where to look. I pray and talk to one or both of them and ultimately right now I have to leave it up to them to forward the messages I send to the wrong address. And then there is the Holy Spirit which is something very experiential. Some will clobber me for not call 'it' 'him', I don't understand all of this either. But, this Holy Spirit we experience is in concert with Jesus and the Father, there's no division, no jealously there, all the email gets forwarded. The Holy Spirit is undeniable reality.

If he'd do so, Turd Herder and some others you might not think could speak decisively about actual experiences of God and the Holy Spirit. At this point we are not merely talking about intellectualism but genuine experiential knowledge. It all starts with the new birth, "Jesus come into my heart and save me". But, that intial buzz (and, it's quite a buzz) doesn't last long. Eventually, you'll forget you ever had the buzz if you don't find ways to bring your gray matter into alignment with the spirit born within. We do this largely through ingesting the teaching and precepts of the Bible. It's great Susie, 'put your hand in the hand of the man from Galilee!'

[Island of misfit toys]

Come out Virginia, don't let me wait
You Catholic girls start much too late
aw But sooner or later it comes down to fate
I might as well be the one

well, They showed you a statue, told you to pray
They built you a temple and locked you away
Aw, but they never told you the price that you pay
For things that you might have done.....
Only the good die young
thats what i said
only the good die young x2

You might have heard I run with a dangerous crowd
We ain't too pretty we ain't too proud
We might be laughing a bit too loud
aw But that never hurt no one

So come on Virginia show me a sign
Send up a signal I'll throw you the line
The stained-glass curtain you're hiding behind
Never lets in the sun
Darlin' only the good die young
(woah x5 )
i tell ya
only the good die young x2

You got a nice white dress and a party on your confirmation
You got a brand new soul
mmmm, And a cross of gold
But Virginia they didn't give you quite enough information
You didn't count on me
When you were counting on your rosary
(oh woah woah)

They say there's a heaven for those who will wait
Some say it's better but I say it ain't
I'd rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints
the Sinners are much more fun...

you know that only the good die young
oh woah baby
i tell ya
only the good die young, X2


You say your mother told you all that I could give you was a reputation
Aww She never cared for me
But did she ever say a prayer for me? oh woah woah

Come out come out come out virgina dont let me wait,
You catholic girls start much too late
Sooner or later it comes down to fate
I might as well be the one,
You know that only the good die young

I'm telling you baby
You know that only the good die young
Only the good die young
Only the gooooooooooooooood
Only the good die young
Only the gooooooooooooooood
Only the good die young
Ooooooooooooooooooooooooo ooooooooooo oooooooooo...

(Only the good die young)x2

Did she ever say a prayer for him? Does he care if she's 16 and knocked up so that she can become a 21 year old single mom? Religion doesn't get it done but neither does rebellion. I'm not being anti-Catholic here, either. From what I've heard, Mother Theresa wasn't just some old hag living in the garbage dump with poor people, she was an awesome, powerful prophetess of God. Religion is the thing. There's a third, awesome, better way.

[goState18]

Originally Posted by Jack78

Yet you never answered this question ==> Literal Word?

... which is key, 'cause if you studied the origins of the Bible you'd know that the ending of Mark (16:9-20) is widely believed to be of questionable authenticity by biblical scholars re: the versions widely used today vs. the oldest, and believed most accurate, manuscripts.

Mark 16:9-20 was not written by Mark. Thats why the entire style of the writing changes. The Church added it on for closure.