How To Get To Heaven When You Die

Sojourner · 09-22-2009, 04:38 PM

Gotham,
Regarding your post on a complete lack of historical evidence for the resurrection of Jesus, I'd be curious to hear what you make of the following article by Dr. William Lane Craig (University of Birmingham (England) (Ph.D. 1977), and the University of Munich (Germany) (D.Theol. 1984)). It's a relatively short article, but one that sums up the history of the research and evidence surrounding the resurrection. Interestingly, I heard him give several lectures while I was at MSU ('94ish).

Contemporary Scholarship and the Historical Evidence for the Resurrection of Jesus Christ

tjmania · 09-22-2009, 06:01 PM

HEADS UP

Americans who don't identify with any religion are now 15% of the USA, but trends in a new study shows they could one day surpass the nation's largest denominations — including Catholics, now 24% of the nation.

People with 'no religion' gain on major denominations - USATODAY.com

Nothing wrong w/ Notre Dame's fanbase shrinking.

Gotham_Spartan · 09-22-2009, 06:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sojourner

Gotham,
Regarding your post on a complete lack of historical evidence for the resurrection of Jesus, I'd be curious to hear what you make of the following article by Dr. William Lane Craig (University of Birmingham (England) (Ph.D. 1977), and the University of Munich (Germany) (D.Theol. 1984)). It's a relatively short article, but one that sums up the history of the research and evidence surrounding the resurrection. Interestingly, I heard him give several lectures while I was at MSU ('94ish).

Contemporary Scholarship and the Historical Evidence for the Resurrection of Jesus Christ

I didn't say there was no historical evidence; I wrote:

"There isn't a single shred of hard, historic evidence of the resurrection. The only mention of it is in the New Testament writings, i.e., by early Christian teachers/preachers writing years (Paul) or decades (the rest of the New Testament) later who had a vested interest in the doctrine. If, as we Christians believe, He rose from the dead, something that has never happened before or since, one would think that there might have been some other mention of it if any non-Christians had any awareness of it, but there is none. One can understand if non-Christians find that the teaching of the Gospels that only the apostles saw Him is a bit too convenient."

And I stand by what I wrote. The New Testament writings are not self-authenticating. The fact remains that no non-Christian even close to being contemporary wrote about it. Don't you find it surprising that, although Jesus was already a public or at least semi-public figure before the crucifixion and although the crucifixion was a very public event, nobody other than the New Testament writers themselves ever mentioned that its victim was walking around Judea for several weeks after? Any such event would have created an unholy stir. The only way to explain the absence of shock and awe among the general population was that Jesus was indeed the Christ and controlled His appearances so that only those who already believed saw Him, people who were already scared enough of the non-Christians to keep the story among themselves. And now we're putting another major miracle on top of the first.

I agree with Craig that there is much about the story that is inconsistent with it being a post hoc fabrication, but I also don't see enough there to convince a wholly rational person who has no spark of faith already. Ultimately, the argument is circumstantial and inferential. And Craig has no explanation for the fact that all of Judea wasn't freaked out because a man that dozens or hundreds of them had witnessed die was walking around among them.

That being said, either it happened or it didn't. If it did, then there's no apparent explanation other than Divinity. Amd that is how one gets to be a Christian.

Biblically yours,

xfrodobagginsx · 09-26-2009, 03:03 AM

Please take the time to read this first post and pray that prayer to God at the bottom of it if you haven't yet.

Scully60 · 09-29-2009, 10:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sojourner

"I would suggest you read E.P. Sanders book 'The Historical Figure of Jesus'"

And I'd suggest that you read N.T. Wright's book "Who Was Jesus?" or any of the books of his series called "Christian Origins and the Question of God".

You speak as if there is not a serious debate on the matter of the historical reliability of the gospels.

As one who is very interested in these types of questions, it's hard to take someone seriously who seems to have no knowledge of the fact that there is legitimately another side of the debate.

From the few posts that I've read of yours, I find myself wondering if your dogma is meant to convince/impress others or yourself.

...and from my post you jump to the conclusion that I don't know who Tom Wright is? Tom Wright has been debating with non-fundamentalist scholars for years. Is there a serious debate on the gospels, or are fundamentalist defending their orthodoxy? My point with Frodo is to get involved in the debate. If their is someone who doesn't know there is a debate, it is fundamentalists like Frodo.

No, I haven't read N.T. Wright's book "Who Was Jesus?" But I have read "The Meaning of Jesus -- Two Visions" by Marcus Borg and N. Thomas Wright. In fact, I attended a debate with the two of them in Grand Rapids almost 10 years ago. Of the two, Wright's arguments, like fundamentalism, are not the more compelling.

Quote:

From the few posts that I've read of yours, I find myself wondering if your dogma is meant to convince/impress others or yourself.

There is an original thought. Copying a post of mine from another thread and "calling" it your own. That is exactly what Matthew and Luke did with Mark's gospel BTW. They copied it word-for-word, with some of their own additions and deletions.

Any time you want to debate this big guy, bring it on!

mattricide · 09-30-2009, 12:49 AM

YouTube - Prayer to Hanuman Krishna Das

IndoSpartan · 09-30-2009, 10:28 AM

Wouldn't it make more sense, be a tad more respectful to start your own thread if you want to promote your religion, set of beliefs, or lack of any?

Seems much like the people that yell, cuss, and poke fun of the Well's Hall preachers. Um... your point is? So sad.

xfrodobagginsx · 10-01-2009, 06:17 PM

Please take the time to read this first post and pray that prayer to God at the bottom of it if you haven't yet.

xfrodobagginsx · 10-03-2009, 12:40 AM

THIS VIDEO WILL EXPLAIN HOW THE NEW TESTIMENT OF THE BIBLE WAS CONONIZED (CAME TO BE):

WHOLE VIDEO:

http://www.tangle.com/view_video?vie...fda7c348271151

xfrodobagginsx · 10-10-2009, 02:20 AM

Debate Evolution/verses Creationism

Evolution Fairytale Forum -> Creation vs Evolution

mattricide · 10-11-2009, 01:02 AM

YouTube - Islamic Call to Prayer

Ozymandias · 10-14-2009, 12:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xfrodobagginsx

Please take the time to read this first post and pray that prayer to God at the bottom of it if you haven't yet.

**** off.

mattricide · 10-16-2009, 12:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ozymandias

**** off.

Really, not called for.

xfrodobagginsx · 10-16-2009, 12:46 PM

Watch the entire video and there is no doubt dinosaurs walked with men. You may want to skip to about 30 minutes into it. That's when he gets into the hard evidence. Don't watch 10 minutes of it and say "that doesn't prove anything" Skip to about 30 minutes into it and then listen.

Cameron · 10-16-2009, 06:38 PM

Madhatter536 · 10-17-2009, 09:40 AM

There was no need whatsoever to listen beyond 2 minutes of this drivel. When the speaker said the Bible was a scientific text and that Adam and Eve were real, his lack of credibility to speak on the subject became so apparent that listening any further would be a waste of anyone's time.

xfrodobagginsx · 11-03-2009, 11:04 AM

ARE YOU 100% SURE THAT IF YOU DIED TODAY THAT YOU WOULD GO TO HEAVEN?

There are some things that you should know:

1. Realize that you are a sinner and in need of a Savior:

Ro 3:23 "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;"

Ro 3:10 "As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:"

This all began with the story of Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden. God created them perfect, there was no death or sorrow. God told them not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. They disobeyed God and as a result, sin entered into the world. The pain which this world sees is the result of sin.

2. Because of our sins, we die both spiritually and physically, but God sent His Son to die so that you can have a chance not to have to go to hell by accepting what He did on the cross for you:

Ro 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

Ro 5:8 "But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. for us."

Every person who has ever lived is a sinner and is not righteous because we do bad things. A sin is a crime against God, just as if you steal something at the store, it is punishable by going to jail. It's the same thing with sin. Even if we lie one time, the punishment is hell, which is a prison for those who commit crimes against God. No matter how well you live your life from then on, you have already committed a sin which will be punished if you are not pardoned. If you commit a crime, and then live as a good citizen you still will go to jail for the crime you committed. Right? Just as the president can pardon a crime so you won't go to jail, Jesus can pardon your sins so that you do not go to hell, and can go to heaven when you die.

3. If you will confess to Jesus Christ that you are a sinner and in need of a Savior, accept Him as Lord and Savior and believe in your heart that He died on the cross and rose from the dead you will be saved.

Joh 1:12 “But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name”

Ro 10:9,10 "that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.."

You cannot get to heaven by being a good person, going to church, baptism or any other way other than by turning to Jesus and asking Him to forgive you for your sins and save you. While these are good things to do, some people believe that they will get to heaven if they do these things, but the bible says that there is only one way to heaven and that is through receiving what Jesus Christ did on the cross for you.

Will you do that today? If you will, you can be 100% sure that you will go to heaven when you die.

DO YOU BELIEVE THAT JESUS CHRIST DIED ON THE CROSS AND ROSE FROM THE DEAD FOR YOUR SINS?

ARE YOU WILLING TO TURN TO JESUS CHRIST FOR SALVATION?

4. If you are willing to accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior please humble yourself before God and pray this prayer to Him from your heart:

"Dear LORD JESUS, I believe that You died on the Cross and Rose from the dead for my sins. I ask you to come into my heart and forgive me for my sins, save me, take me to be with You when I die. I now receive You as my Lord and Savior. Thank You for saving me. In Jesus holy name, Amen."

If you prayed that prayer to God, and meant it with all of your heart, you are now a child of God and will go to heaven when you die.

Now that you are on your way to heaven, you should attend a bible believing church and follow in baptism.

Gotham_Spartan · 11-03-2009, 11:15 AM

Mods, can't this be merged with the previous thread that began identically and did not appear actually to save anyone from anything?

Exhaustedly yours,

Dr. Strangelove · 11-03-2009, 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gotham_Spartan

Mods, can't this be merged with the previous thread that began identically and did not appear actually to save anyone from anything?

Exhaustedly yours,

Actually there were four of these threads.

To quote a great banner though, "Mission Accomplished".

monty4msu · 11-03-2009, 06:34 PM

Read something interesting a week or so ago. For 40 years or so, Christians have used the "If you were to die today, where would you spend eternity?" This has worked well for the most part. However, someone, cant recall who, did a survey, and they concluded that the avg American spends very little time thinking about death, and eternity. So, perhaps those of us who want to lead others to a relationship with God thru Christ, need to find another way to begin this discussion. Dont know what that looks like right now, but something that has been working in my head. So, what would lead you into a discussion of spiritual things? What would make you pull the trigger on this kind of discussion? I would love to hear some answers.

xfrodobagginsx · 11-06-2009, 11:09 PM

I must have copied the wrong source. Sorry about that.

mattricide · 11-07-2009, 01:59 AM

YouTube - Spirit Of The Ancestors-Prayer for Nanye Hi(Native American)

Dorian · 11-07-2009, 09:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scully60

This thinking is every bit as fundamentalist as Frodo's thinking. Here are the problems with it: 1) Where is heaven and where is hell? "Upstairs"? "Downstairs"? Which one is more written about in the Bible?

2)You are making claims about what Jesus said that he simply did not say. You need to learn what likely came out of Jesus' mouth and what likely was put into Jesus' mouth. Fundamentalists claim everything in the Bible is literal, and that everything that is reported to be said by Jesus, he actually said. Nonsense. You are paraphrasing John 3:16. John in many ways, is the most profound book in the bible. It is also virtually free of historicity. The words come from Jesus in long elaborate discourses, showing evidence of long theological development and can't possibly be the words of the historic Jesus.

3) You aren't "drilling down" at all. You are repeating fundamentalist naiveté. "What does he say about this topic"? Nothing. I would suggest you read E.P. Sanders book "The Historical Figure of Jesus"

1 - The "upstairs" and "downstairs" reference was rhetorical. I don't know where heaven and hell is. I am interested in this subject, that of spirituality and physical being. I've heard it described as a veil, as you approach death, the veil is removed. My wife works in the medical field and has seen a staunch aethiest on her death bed go into complete hysterics: fighting, swinging her arms at the air, screaming "Get away from me! No! No! Ahhhhh!!!" then die. Just a bad dream - right?

2. Jesus said "I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." Now I've heard pastors preach on this, and use this verse to state one must follow Christ to be saved. That might be true. My interpretation is Jesus decides who is saved. It's his decision. Could Jesus save Hindus? I don't know. Maybe. Maybe not.

3. Bologna. Jesus says a lot about what one must do to be saved, and what will likely cause people to go to hell. Basically, if you've been given the word of God, and you reject it, you are in trouble. The issue is, many people have been given a twisted view of scripture. A horrible example is priests who molest children. I could understand why those children could have a difficult time as adults. But more often the case is we don't want to be told what to do, and most people "don't need God."

xfrodobagginsx · 11-08-2009, 02:36 AM

Please take the time to read this first post and pray that prayer at the bottom of it to God from your heart.

Quincy55 · 11-08-2009, 02:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dorian

1 - The "upstairs" and "downstairs" reference was rhetorical. I don't know where heaven and hell is. I am interested in this subject, that of spirituality and physical being. I've heard it described as a veil, as you approach death, the veil is removed. My wife works in the medical field and has seen a staunch aethiest on her death bed go into complete hysterics: fighting, swinging her arms at the air, screaming "Get away from me! No! No! Ahhhhh!!!" then die. Just a bad dream - right?

2. Jesus said "I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." Now I've heard pastors preach on this, and use this verse to state one must follow Christ to be saved. That might be true. My interpretation is Jesus decides who is saved. It's his decision. Could Jesus save Hindus? I don't know. Maybe. Maybe not.

3. Bologna. Jesus says a lot about what one must do to be saved, and what will likely cause people to go to hell. Basically, if you've been given the word of God, and you reject it, you are in trouble. The issue is, many people have been given a twisted view of scripture. A horrible example is priests who molest children. I could understand why those children could have a difficult time as adults. But more often the case is we don't want to be told what to do, and most people "don't need God."

Where do people get this "twisted view of scripture" and where do you get your view of scripture (since this is the "issue")?