Bush made 935 "false statements" regarding Iraq

[Other Mike]

Having not read the document, are they ranked? Can somebody give me their number 1 false statement?

[oscar novak]

Wow...you can access the site today and read about the report. As suspected, only administration officials were under scrutiny. All Congressional Intelligence Committees were let off the hook. Guess we shouldn't be surprised that Democrats were left untouched since George Soros funded the study...right on the heels of the discovery that he also funded that phony Lancet study that was released just prior to a major US election. Leave it to the Associated Press to leave that little tidbit out.

The political tilt of the report is immediately obvious for reasons beyond its focus on the Administration and its omission of Congress. It does not address intelligence as it was understood at the time (as Bob said above - hindsight can be fun), as opposed to the way it compares to what we know today.

More later...

[go_disc_golf]

Originally Posted by oscar novak

Wow...you can access the site today and read about the report. As suspected, only administration officials were under scrutiny. All Congressional Intelligence Committees were let off the hook. Guess we shouldn't be surprised that Democrats were left untouched since George Soros funded the study...right on the heels of the discovery that he also funded that phony Lancet study that was released just prior to a major US election. Leave it to the Associated Press to leave that little tidbit out.

The political tilt of the report is immediately obvious for reasons beyond its focus on the Administration and its omission of Congress. It does not address intelligence as it was understood at the time (as Bob said above - hindsight can be fun), as opposed to the way it compares to what we know today.

More later...

Denial isn't a river in Africa.

[Other Mike]

I'm dying here, what was the number one statement? I'm sure it had to be a dousy to beat out the other 934.

[go_disc_golf]

Originally Posted by Other Mike

I'm dying here, what was the number one statement? I'm sure it had to be a dousy to beat out the other 934.

Had to be the aluminum tubes lie.

Our own nuclear scientists were telling the White House that the aluminum tubes in question were not suitable for centrifuging. Of course, that did not jibe with the admin's agenda, so they ignored the experts and went on with the lie as it was repeated by Rice, Cheney and Bush.

Bush's Misuse of Science : Misrepresenting Evidence on Iraq's Aluminum Tubes

[oscar novak]

Originally Posted by go_disc_golf

Denial isn't a river in Africa.

I'm sorry...what does denial have to do with anything here? Have you read the report? To post a tired cliche and adding your little emoticon (my emoticon theory holds, btw) without reading or referring to the material is closer to denial than anything I have posted. Not that expect much of value from you. Oh well, another day, another waste of time.

[go_disc_golf]

Originally Posted by oscar novak

I'm sorry...what does denial have to do with anything here? Have you read the report? To post a tired cliche and adding your little emoticon (my emoticon theory holds, btw) without reading or referring to the material is closer to denial than anything I have posted. Not that expect much of value from you. Oh well, another day, another waste of time.

You are in denial over the lies of the Bush admin during the run up to the invasion of Iraq.

It was the Bush admin (and the neocons) who were pushing for invasion, it was their job to justify an invasion, they had access to the intel, they are ones who lied. When you are ready to admit those facts, let me know.

[Other Mike]

go, no lie, i just don't remember the tubes lie. Can you post the exact quote, and who made it?

[Other Mike]

round, i'd love to deal with it. Just provide exact quotes and context for your assertions. Apparently Soros did all the heavy lifting for you on this, just cut and paste it.

Thanks.

[go_disc_golf]

"Our intelligence sources tell us that he (Saddam) has attempted to purchase high-strength aluminum tubes suitable for nuclear weapons production." -- State of the Union Address (1/28/2003).

[Saddam] now is trying, through his illicit procurement network, to acquire the equipment he needs to be able to enrich uranium -- specifically, aluminum tubes. - Dick Cheney, September 8, 2002

We do know that there have been shipments going into...Iraq, for instance, of aluminum tubes that really are only suited to -- high-quality aluminum tubes that are only really suited for nuclear weapons programs, centrifuge programs. - Condoleezza Rice, September 8, 2002

Iraq has made several attempts to buy high-strength aluminum tubes used to enrich uranium for a nuclear weapon. - George Bush, September 12, 2002

Iraq has attempted to purchase high-strength aluminum tubes and other equipment needed for gas centrifuges, which are used to enrich uranium for nuclear weapons. - George Bush, October 7, 2002

I will say this is something that the President has said publicly, that Iraq did, in fact, seek to buy these tubes for the purpose of producing, not as Iraq now claims conventional forces, but for the purpose of trying to produce nuclear weapons. And so it's, on the one hand, mildly encouraging that Iraq would now admit to what it's been doing. But on the other hand, a lie is still a lie, because these -- they sought to produce these for the purpose of production of nuclear weapons, not conventional. - Ari Fleischer, December 2, 2002

Our intelligence sources tell us that he has attempted to purchase high-strength aluminum tubes suitable for nuclear weapons production. Saddam Hussein has not credibly explained these activities. He clearly has much to hide. - George Bush, January 28, 2003

Are we convinced that those tubes were designed and were intended for enrichment of uranium? The answer is definitely, yes. - John Negroponte, January 29, 2003

[Other Mike]

Thanks Go, sincerely.

To follow up, i'm sure there is proof that former Iraqi gov't has never purchased any aluminum tubes, correct?

[oscar novak]

Originally Posted by go_disc_golf

You are in denial over the lies of the Bush admin during the run up to the invasion of Iraq.

It was the Bush admin (and the neocons) who were pushing for invasion, it was their job to justify an invasion, they had access to the intel, they are ones who lied. When you are ready to admit those facts, let me know.

Both houses of Congress voted overwhelmingly in favor of authorizing the President to launch OIF.

There is a difference between "false statements" (easy to identify in hindsight) and "lying". The report does not take into account the available intelligence at the time of the statements that were made. In some cases, it cherrypicks intel that is favorable to its anti-Bush agenda without acknowledging contradictory evidence...the exact same practice of which it accuses the Adminstration.

Read the Duelfer Report and the Kay Report rather than the headlines about these reports. Here is a nice summary that includes links to each report. Among the highlights:

Not so fast. First, the ISG did find WMD. In fact, it found at least 53 of them.

'Beginning in May 2004, ISG recovered a series of chemical weapons from Coalition military units and other sources. A total of 53 munitions have been recovered.'

Why haven't you heard that? Possibly because that information was buried on page 97 of Annex F of Volume 3 of the Duelfer Report.

'Some WMD personnel crossed borders in the pre/trans conflict period and may have taken evidence and even weapons—related materials with them.'

Both David Kay and Charles Duelfer noted that Iraq continued to conceal its WMD activities, and suspected sites were often 'cleaned' or 'looted'. Per the Kay report,

'We have discovered dozens of WMD—related program activities and significant amounts of equipment that Iraq concealed from the United Nations during the inspections that began in late 2002.'

Again - I agree that no 'large stockpiles' were found, but WMD were indeed recovered in Iraq. Key WMD program personnel fled Iraq prior to OIF, and as the Kay report says, one cannot conclude that they did not carry WMD or WMD program material with them. Remember the two weeks our satellites watched a stream of trucks fly across the border while President Bush waited for Tony Blair to save his political life in the UK?

Did the President lie, or does George Soros continue to lie through his paid flunkies and a flatly anti-Bush media?

[Bob Sakimano]

I'm still amazed that bu$h would lie to the American people...

he seems like such a good christian.

[go_disc_golf]

Originally Posted by Other Mike

Thanks Go, sincerely.

To follow up, i'm sure there is proof that former Iraqi gov't has never purchased any aluminum tubes, correct?

These statements were based on an interception of aluminum tubes destined for Iraq. Nobody denies that Iraq was attempting to buy aluminum tubes, the disagreement, and the basis of the admin's lies is with the intended use of those tubes.

Department of Energy’s (DOE) Oak Ridge experts, Los Alamos National Laboratories, the State Department’s intelligence branch and an international group of centrifuge experts advising the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) all disagreed with the admin's conclusions (in other words, the folks who do this kind of work for a living) and yet the admin ignored their findings and went on with their agenda.

[oscar novak]

Originally Posted by go_disc_golf

"Our intelligence sources tell us that he (Saddam) has attempted to purchase high-strength aluminum tubes suitable for nuclear weapons production." -- State of the Union Address (1/28/2003).

[Saddam] now is trying, through his illicit procurement network, to acquire the equipment he needs to be able to enrich uranium -- specifically, aluminum tubes. - Dick Cheney, September 8, 2002

We do know that there have been shipments going into...Iraq, for instance, of aluminum tubes that really are only suited to -- high-quality aluminum tubes that are only really suited for nuclear weapons programs, centrifuge programs. - Condoleezza Rice, September 8, 2002

Iraq has made several attempts to buy high-strength aluminum tubes used to enrich uranium for a nuclear weapon. - George Bush, September 12, 2002

Iraq has attempted to purchase high-strength aluminum tubes and other equipment needed for gas centrifuges, which are used to enrich uranium for nuclear weapons. - George Bush, October 7, 2002

I will say this is something that the President has said publicly, that Iraq did, in fact, seek to buy these tubes for the purpose of producing, not as Iraq now claims conventional forces, but for the purpose of trying to produce nuclear weapons. And so it's, on the one hand, mildly encouraging that Iraq would now admit to what it's been doing. But on the other hand, a lie is still a lie, because these -- they sought to produce these for the purpose of production of nuclear weapons, not conventional. - Ari Fleischer, December 2, 2002

Our intelligence sources tell us that he has attempted to purchase high-strength aluminum tubes suitable for nuclear weapons production. Saddam Hussein has not credibly explained these activities. He clearly has much to hide. - George Bush, January 28, 2003

Are we convinced that those tubes were designed and were intended for enrichment of uranium? The answer is definitely, yes. - John Negroponte, January 29, 2003

Are these lies if that's what the CIA was telling them at the time, as its October 2002 Report on Iraq's WMD clearly states?

# Iraq's aggressive attempts to obtain proscribed high-strength aluminum tubes are of significant concern. All intelligence experts agree that Iraq is seeking nuclear weapons and that these tubes could be used in a centrifuge enrichment program. Most intelligence specialists assess this to be the intended use, but some believe that these tubes are probably intended for conventional weapons programs.

Why aren't you POd at Dickie Durbin, the Senate Intelligence Committee Member who claims he knew better than the President and didn't have the balls to do anything about it?

[go_disc_golf]

Originally Posted by oscar novak

Both houses of Congress voted overwhelmingly in favor of authorizing the President to launch OIF.

for two reasons: They were being lied to and because of the "you are with us or with the terrorists" culture prevalent at that time.

There is a difference between "false statements" (easy to identify in hindsight) and "lying". The report does not take into account the available intelligence at the time of the statements that were made. In some cases, it cherrypicks intel that is favorable to its anti-Bush agenda without acknowledging contradictory evidence...the exact same practice of which it accuses the Adminstration.

Sure there is, the admin did both and more. They flat out lied, they "misled" and made a bunch of false statements. They cherrypicked data and ignored evidence that didn't meet their agenda.

Read the Duelfer Report and the Kay Report rather than the headlines about these reports. Here is a nice summary that includes links to each report. Among the highlights:

Again - I agree that no 'large stockpiles' were found, but WMD were indeed recovered in Iraq. Key WMD program personnel fled Iraq prior to OIF, and as the Kay report says, one cannot conclude that they did not carry WMD or WMD program material with them. Remember the two weeks our satellites watched a stream of trucks fly across the border while President Bush waited for Tony Blair to save his political life in the UK?

Regardless, we were all told that Iraq had huge stockpiles, that many were weaponized and ready to be used at a moments notice and that we knew exactly where they were.

Keep clinging to the "the weapons are in Syria" cop out. We've been in Iraq for years now and have found no evidence of an active weapons program.

Did the President lie,

yes, he and several members of his admin lied.

[AbbottHallAbsyntheDrinker]

Leaders always lie to take their nation to war, and the people are either too stupid or apathetic to do anything about it.

[go_disc_golf]

Originally Posted by oscar novak

Are these lies if that's what the CIA was telling them at the time, as its October 2002 Report on Iraq's WMD clearly states?

Yes they are lies if our own nuclear experts are telling them that the CIA report is incorrect!

And hell, have you forgotten that the CIA was pressured to make conclusions in line with the neocon agenda?

Why aren't you POd at Dickie Durbin, the Senate Intelligence Committee Member who claims he knew better than the President and didn't have the balls to do anything about it?

Who says I'm not? At any rate, he wasn't making the decision to go to war, Bush and crew were. Again, the culture of demonizing anyone who spoke out against invasion was very real. You were basically labeled a traitor if you spoke out. Just another part of the neocons' plan.

[Other Mike]

I wouldn't agree that it is a lie or even a false statement. Reading through your quotes, the statements are pretty clear and uniform. " we have proof that the Iraqi gov't is purchasing aluminum tubes, and we guess they are used for the making of weapons."

Since no one is disputing that they were buying aluminum tubes, the debate was what their end use was. It certainly wasn't then, nor even now, 100% conclusive that these were for non military applications. There was a wide variety of opinions.

So, therefore, it is a tremendous use of hindsight to say that these are false statements. And if these are the best of the (935) bunch, the only logical conclusion is this is purely political; and that their intention isn't rational discussion, but rather the hope to seed a 30 second soundclip on one of the 24 hr news channels or message boards.

[Bob Sakimano]

Originally Posted by AbbottHallAbsyntheDrinker

Leaders always lie to take their nation to war, and the people are either too stupid or apathetic to do anything about it.

word

which is why I think a draft would be a good idea

the chickenhawks and right wing hate radio war mongers might think twice if they suspected that they or their kids might actually have leave their comfortable confines to go defend their lifestyle that they believe is in the balance...

[go_disc_golf]

Originally Posted by Other Mike

I wouldn't agree that it is a lie or even a false statement. Reading through your quotes, the statements are pretty clear and uniform. " we have proof that the Iraqi gov't is purchasing aluminum tubes, and we guess they are used for the making of weapons."

but that's not what was being said, they were claiming use for a NUCLEAR program and all of our experts said that was impossible.

Since no one is disputing that they were buying aluminum tubes, the debate was what their end use was. It certainly wasn't then, nor even now, 100% conclusive that these were for non military applications. There was a wide variety of opinions.

You aren't paying attention, they were to be used for military purposes, rockets. Nobody denies that. And there wasn't a "wide variety" of opinions. Nuclear experts said that the tubes could not be used for centrifuging, the CIA (pressured by Cheney) said they could be.

So, therefore, it is a tremendous use of hindsight to say that these are false statements.

Not at all, our own nuclear experts were making these conclusions at the time. And the White House ignored them, because it didn't fit their agenda. That is lying.

[Other Mike]

Go, if we could travel back to those days, this was the time of the 9/11 investigation.

This board was filled with assertions that the Bush administration failed the country by not connecting the dots. There were very credible reports of the capabilities of the Iraqi nuclear programs in operation, and their orgins were intelligence organizations from around the world.

The choice of the president at the time was crystal clear, connect the dots, or ignore them.

[chachi]

There is a lot of apologist BULL**** in this thread.

Get out of DENIAL.

[MSU '73]

Originally Posted by Other Mike

Go, if we could travel back to those days, this was the time of the 9/11 investigation.

This board was filled with assertions that the Bush administration failed the country by not connecting the dots. There were very credible reports of the capabilities of the Iraqi nuclear programs in operation, and their orgins were intelligence organizations from around the world.

The choice of the president at the time was crystal clear, connect the dots, or ignore them.

Ever wonder how some people were able to make the CORRECT call regarding Iraq?

Same dots, bud. Just CORRECTLY connected.

Something you and your ilk do not have the knowledge or intelligence to understand.

[oscar novak]

Originally Posted by go_disc_golf

Yes they are lies if our own nuclear experts are telling them that the CIA report is incorrect!

Where's the evidence? I linked plenty of material for you, how about offering up something other than your opinion? Are you saying that Team Duelfer and Team Kay lacked nuclear expertise? Both reports, based on evidence on the ground in Iraq, demonstrated that Saddam was WAY closer to having nukes than the IAEA thought. How about simply defining who "our own nuclear experts" are? I mean, we should be able to contact them directly since it is such a clearly defined group.

Originally Posted by go_disc_golf

And hell, have you forgotten that the CIA was pressured to make conclusions in line with the neocon agenda?

Oh right...they maaaaade us do it! Didn't realize MK Ultra was still alive and kicking and allowing the eevyil Administration to control every thought and action of every CIA analyst.

Originally Posted by go_disc_golf

Who says I'm not? At any rate, he wasn't making the decision to go to war, Bush and crew were. Again, the culture of demonizing anyone who spoke out against invasion was very real. You were basically labeled a traitor if you spoke out. Just another part of the neocons' plan.

Really? The Senate had nothing to do with OIF? the SIC and the HIC had the same intelligence. You need to get over the Neocon as the all-powerful bogeyman paranoia thing. It's embarrassing to watch.

For fun, here's a recap of courageous Senator Jay Rockefeller trying to tell a national television audience that he was not responsible for his vote for OIF...after calling Saddam Hussein an "imminent threat" to the United States, which the President had not even done.

Jay Rockefeller, Obvious Neocon Lackey

Oh yeah...he also says he had the same intel the President had...