A prime example of the different ways we learn about Iraq

[oscar novak]

An acceptable review of War and Decision for the anti-Bushies

vs.

An acceptable review of War and Decision for those interested in learning about OIF

An interesting contrast...anyone think I'm far off? It is similar to reading reports about reports that have not been released yet vs. reading the actual report.

[GRR Spartan]

Most war supporters acceptable view is from afar.

[oscar novak]

Originally Posted by GRR Spartan

Most war supporters acceptable view is from afar.

Did you go to Iraq to make your decision to oppose OIF?

[GRR Spartan]

Originally Posted by oscar novak

Did you go to Iraq to make your decision to oppose OIF?

Oscar, you are such a cheerleader for the neocon democracy experiment. Right now the Iraqi people are voting with their feet. Professionals (doctors, engineers, professors, lawyers) are voting with their feet heading to other countries. Women are being harassed and threatened by armed gangs of religious thugs to keep their heads covered and cannot travel unaccompanied to jobs because of the radical religious gangs wanting to depress women's freedoms.

Iraq is a bigger mess for its people in many areas than prior to the US occupation. While there is more political freedom in some areas there is less religious freedom; jews and christians are being systematically driven out or killed; enforcement of Islamic laws with guns, and their quality of life regarding health care, water/sewer and electricity is shaky.

Keep believing your version of reality. Whenever the US pulls out (and we will pull out, along with our billions in annual aid) Iraq will morph into either a elected democracy of which the US doesn't approve (see Palestine and Iran) or have a strong single leader the US can support (see Saudi Arabia, Egypt and Jordan)

By the way, what's next on your operation Mid East Democracy tour? Iran? Lebanon? Syria? We are running out of troops to occupy Iraq and have never finished the original job in Afghanistan.

[greenjoker]

Originally Posted by GRR Spartan

Oscar, you are such a cheerleader for the neocon democracy experiment. Right now the Iraqi people are voting with their feet. Professionals (doctors, engineers, professors, lawyers) are voting with their feet heading to other countries. Women are being harassed and threatened by armed gangs of religious thugs to keep their heads covered and cannot travel unaccompanied to jobs because of the radical religious gangs wanting to depress women's freedoms.

Iraq is a bigger mess for its people in many areas than prior to the US occupation. While there is more political freedom in some areas there is less religious freedom; jews and christians are being systematically driven out or killed; enforcement of Islamic laws with guns, and their quality of life regarding health care, water/sewer and electricity is shaky.

Keep believing your version of reality. Whenever the US pulls out (and we will pull out, along with our billions in annual aid) Iraq will morph into either a elected democracy of which the US doesn't approve (see Palestine and Iran) or have a strong single leader the US can support (see Saudi Arabia, Egypt and Jordan)

By the way, what's next on your operation Mid East Democracy tour? Iran? Lebanon? Syria? We are running out of troops to occupy Iraq and have never finished the original job in Afghanistan.

Well stated - I'm afraid that what you have pointed out will tarnish many other's rose colored glasses.

[Bob Sakimano]

Originally Posted by GRR Spartan

Oscar, you are such a cheerleader for the neocon democracy experiment. Right now the Iraqi people are voting with their feet. Professionals (doctors, engineers, professors, lawyers) are voting with their feet heading to other countries. Women are being harassed and threatened by armed gangs of religious thugs to keep their heads covered and cannot travel unaccompanied to jobs because of the radical religious gangs wanting to depress women's freedoms.

Iraq is a bigger mess for its people in many areas than prior to the US occupation. While there is more political freedom in some areas there is less religious freedom; jews and christians are being systematically driven out or killed; enforcement of Islamic laws with guns, and their quality of life regarding health care, water/sewer and electricity is shaky.

Keep believing your version of reality. Whenever the US pulls out (and we will pull out, along with our billions in annual aid) Iraq will morph into either a elected democracy of which the US doesn't approve (see Palestine and Iran) or have a strong single leader the US can support (see Saudi Arabia, Egypt and Jordan)

By the way, what's next on your operation Mid East Democracy tour? Iran? Lebanon? Syria? We are running out of troops to occupy Iraq and have never finished the original job in Afghanistan.

you mean we can't just stroll in, kill a bunch of people and break a bunch of stuff and install a flourishing democracy complete with candy stores, kittens and family picnics??

sounds easy to me..


sincerely,

neocons

[Al Czervik]

The neocons would never stovepipe intelligence to fit their preplanned agenda!
http://zfacts.com/metaPage/lib/98-Rumsfeld-Iraq.pdf

[Jack78]

Originally Posted by oscar novak

...
An interesting contrast...anyone think I'm far off? It is similar to reading reports about reports that have not been released yet vs. reading the actual report.

Yes, you're not only far off, you're well beyond the horizon .... and that's truly sad.

An operation of great national risk ... no plan for the aftermath and insurgency.

Many of those directly involved in the run-up and execution of OIF are on record in live interviews with their experiences. Feith's assertion is they mis-remembered ... did you catch that???? He claims they just freakin' mis-remembered .... and he's here to set the record straight. And you happily gobble-up every pile he drops. Wow.

This is 100% you, oscar.

[Jack78]

Originally Posted by Al Czervik

The neocons would never stovepipe intelligence to fit their preplanned agenda!
http://zfacts.com/metaPage/lib/98-Rumsfeld-Iraq.pdf

Absolutlely pre-planned w/ opportunistic hijacking of 911. ... just needed to "align the public" to allow the experiment to begin.

[oscar novak]

Originally Posted by GRR Spartan

Oscar, you are such a cheerleader for the neocon democracy experiment. Right now the Iraqi people are voting with their feet. Professionals (doctors, engineers, professors, lawyers) are voting with their feet heading to other countries.

With apologies, I cannot simply accept what you type here without some sort of reference. But supposing I do accept this as fact - please explain how this is different than most other countries in the world? Having worked for the largest processor of US visa applications in a former career, I can tell you that folks from all over the globe are pounding on the door to get to the US and a handful of other nations. Does the fact that there is a 14-year waiting list to get a work visa in the US from the Philippines (with the exception of healthcare workers) make me a neocon cheerleader? Your cries of people voting with their feet is meaningless without context.

Originally Posted by GRR Spartan

Women are being harassed and threatened by armed gangs of religious thugs to keep their heads covered and cannot travel unaccompanied to jobs because of the radical religious gangs wanting to depress women's freedoms.

I guess total oppression and zero political representation would be better? So...you're a pro-13th Century social scene guy? Wouldn't have guessed that...although that's where socialism usually ends up.

Originally Posted by GRR Spartan

Iraq is a bigger mess for its people in many areas than prior to the US occupation. While there is more political freedom in some areas there is less religious freedom; jews and christians are being systematically driven out or killed; enforcement of Islamic laws with guns, and their quality of life regarding health care, water/sewer and electricity is shaky.

And more religious freedom in others...and more cooperation between sects than ever. Links for your statements would be nice...it looks like you're once again relying on news from 2003 that was gathered by insurgent stringers for "reporters" in NYC. There are several aspects of Iraqi life that have dramatically improved as well...but I guess that's something you prefer not to weigh against your politically supportive complaints. (Oil production, health care, telephone service, exports, economy...seem important to most Americans, why not Iraqis?)

Originally Posted by GRR Spartan

Keep believing your version of reality. Whenever the US pulls out (and we will pull out, along with our billions in annual aid) Iraq will morph into either a elected democracy of which the US doesn't approve (see Palestine and Iran) or have a strong single leader the US can support (see Saudi Arabia, Egypt and Jordan)

Prediction noted.

Originally Posted by GRR Spartan

By the way, what's next on your operation Mid East Democracy tour? Iran? Lebanon? Syria? We are running out of troops to occupy Iraq and have never finished the original job in Afghanistan.

The draw-down of troops has begun and Coalition forces are in Iraq at the request of the elected government of Iraq. I wish NATO were handling Afghanistan better.

[Donnyrotten]

Originally Posted by GRR Spartan

Oscar, you are such a cheerleader for the neocon democracy experiment. Right now the Iraqi people are voting with their feet. Professionals (doctors, engineers, professors, lawyers) are voting with their feet heading to other countries. Women are being harassed and threatened by armed gangs of religious thugs to keep their heads covered and cannot travel unaccompanied to jobs because of the radical religious gangs wanting to depress women's freedoms.

Iraq is a bigger mess for its people in many areas than prior to the US occupation. While there is more political freedom in some areas there is less religious freedom; jews and christians are being systematically driven out or killed; enforcement of Islamic laws with guns, and their quality of life regarding health care, water/sewer and electricity is shaky.

Keep believing your version of reality. Whenever the US pulls out (and we will pull out, along with our billions in annual aid) Iraq will morph into either a elected democracy of which the US doesn't approve (see Palestine and Iran) or have a strong single leader the US can support (see Saudi Arabia, Egypt and Jordan)

By the way, what's next on your operation Mid East Democracy tour? Iran? Lebanon? Syria? We are running out of troops to occupy Iraq and have never finished the original job in Afghanistan.

I am not so sure about the pullout GRR, at least not in the sense we dont still call the shots locally.


I think Keith Olbermann got it exactly right last night. The reason we went to war in Iraq is to go to war in Iraq.

All of Bush and Cheney's cabal eat well when the contractors make billions pumping out war items.


They arent building the worlds largest Embassy to leave it to rats to inhabit........well in some respects maybe they are

[GRR Spartan]

Oscar, just for you:

2007 TheStar.com | News | Leaving Iraq: Tales from a new diaspora
2006 Professionals Fleeing Iraq As Violence, Threats Persist - washingtonpost.com
After enough professional leave their lack of presence has a numbing effect on economic growth.

Women are intimidated by milita gangs 2006
http:///portal.unesco.org/en/ev.php-URL_ID=35513&URL_DO=DO_TOPIC&URL_SECTION=201.html

Please don't tell us that this has changed because it hasn't. The militias are stronger than they were 2 years ago.

Oscar, some of us realize Iraq isn't some board game or EA/Rockstar type video game. Real people, real death and billions of real US dollars going down a rat hole.

[chriswyse]

Originally Posted by oscar novak

An acceptable review of War and Decision for the anti-Bushies

vs.

An acceptable review of War and Decision for those interested in learning about OIF

An interesting contrast...anyone think I'm far off? It is similar to reading reports about reports that have not been released yet vs. reading the actual report.

That Daily show interview was terrible. It was ten minutes of nothing.

[oscar novak]

Originally Posted by GRR Spartan

Oscar, just for you:

2007 TheStar.com | News | Leaving Iraq: Tales from a new diaspora
2006 Professionals Fleeing Iraq As Violence, Threats Persist - washingtonpost.com
After enough professional leave their lack of presence has a numbing effect on economic growth.

Women are intimidated by milita gangs 2006
http:///portal.unesco.org/en/ev.php-URL_ID=35513&URL_DO=DO_TOPIC&URL_SECTION=201.html

Please don't tell us that this has changed because it hasn't. The militias are stronger than they were 2 years ago.

Hilarious! So you have nothing that supports your view that things are the same or worse since more than a year ago and I'm supposed to take your word for it. How do YOU know this if you don't have any recent news to form your opinion?

Originally Posted by GRR Spartan

Oscar, some of us realize Iraq isn't some board game or EA/Rockstar type video game. Real people, real death and billions of real US dollars going down a rat hole.

I know some of us do, I communicate with the people who are there doing the reconstruction and occasional fighting regularly. What are your friends who are there telling you? I know you had dinner with a Guard friend a while back, what did he have to say about your news from 2006?

[GRR Spartan]

I don't think 1000's of Iraqi dead since we started the occupation is funny but I'm disturbed you do. I don't think its funny that Iraqi women are being pushed around by young uneducated religious thugs but you do. I don't thin sewage in the streets and 12 hours of electrical power in freezing temps or 100f is funny but you do.

Keep drinking the kool aid. The neocon democracy experiment in Iraq is coming to a close. I am afraid McCain and Bush2/Cheny see Iran as Phase 2.

Please keep sending your relatives as fodder into the Iraqi hell hole to support your idealogical beliefs but much of America is saying "thank you, no"

[greenjoker]

I am beginning to believe that Colin Powell's statement "You break it, you own it" is what it's all about. Bush and Cheney invaded/broke Iraq so that we would own it. McCain said as much as well as Bush trying to get an agreement with the present Iraq government to provide a presence there.

[GRR Spartan]

Oscar loves his anecdotal evidence. In today's military with the almost paranoid fear of questioning orders/mission being monitored and having command at any level retaliate, no soldier with any brains is going to tell anyone bad things.

Having experienced the fight in S. VietNam I can tell you we always had gungho folks telling us how well the fight was going (even some in our unit) while it was clearly the beginning of the end.

I just can't see how Oscar's stories of progress mean progress when you have at least 30% of the greater Bahgdad metroplex under the rules of religious zealots, large portions of the country where the US doesn't even send troops in for patrols because it's too dangerous and water/sewer/electrical service is still sporadic.

Thats AFTER 5 YEARS, FIVE YEARS AND 4000+ DEAD and 10,000+seriously WOUNDED.

How many more dead, wounded and how many more Billions spent on a place where we will not have a government without a despot. Meanwhile Russia's Putin along with Hu Jintao and Wen Jiabao of China are happily watching the US lose world standing and financial might being locked down in Iraq.

[oscar novak]

Originally Posted by GRR Spartan

Oscar loves his anecdotal evidence. In today's military with the almost paranoid fear of questioning orders/mission being monitored and having command at any level retaliate, no soldier with any brains is going to tell anyone bad things.

Having experienced the fight in S. VietNam I can tell you we always had gungho folks telling us how well the fight was going (even some in our unit) while it was clearly the beginning of the end.

I just can't see how Oscar's stories of progress mean progress when you have at least 30% of the greater Bahgdad metroplex under the rules of religious zealots, large portions of the country where the US doesn't even send troops in for patrols because it's too dangerous and water/sewer/electrical service is still sporadic.

Thats AFTER 5 YEARS, FIVE YEARS AND 4000+ DEAD and 10,000+seriously WOUNDED.

You sure throw out a bunch of statistics and evidence regarding what you allege to be the current state of Iraq/Baghdad. Shouldn't your all caps statement read, "AFTER 3 YEARS, THREE YEARS..." since that appears to be the latest news you've read?

My relatives are exceptionally bright, well-informed people. Your suggestion that they are Flavr Aid chugging gungho types is amusing...if someone disagrees with you, they're stupid or blind...that's usually demonstration that the accuser is himself suffering from those symptoms. I've sat at the family dinner table with veterans of Vietnam, Desert Storm and OIF and listened to some fascinating discussion. Were you at that table, you would be given appropriate respect and you would have had the pleasure of engaging in interesting, informed debate. I'm sure you have some old friends from the service who disagree with you - I humbly suggest you seek them out and speak with them.

[GRR Spartan]

I don't doubt how smart your relatives are and how they tell you anecdotal evidence on how well things are going.

In today's military, especially in Iraq and Afghanistan, everything is monitored. Do you think Pat Tillman's still missing diary is coincidence ? Complain too much and you find yourself on extra patrols with IED's waiting for you.

I'm happy your relatives are safe but they and every other US serviceman in Iraq is there because of a moving target style agenda. The Iraqi people want leadership and like other places in the region, their choices don't match up well with ours.

Keep believing the the Bush2/Cheney grab for long term bases in Iraq is all about democracy. It wasn't and isn't about that now. It's about establishing a long term US presence to control a major portion of the world's known oil reserves but the knuckleheads who hatched this idea never thought the US could be so universally disliked.

[oscar novak]

Originally Posted by GRR Spartan

I don't doubt how smart your relatives are and how they tell you anecdotal evidence on how well things are going.

In today's military, especially in Iraq and Afghanistan, everything is monitored. Do you think Pat Tillman's still missing diary is coincidence ? Complain too much and you find yourself on extra patrols with IED's waiting for you.

I'm happy your relatives are safe but they and every other US serviceman in Iraq is there because of a moving target style agenda. The Iraqi people want leadership and like other places in the region, their choices don't match up well with ours.

Keep believing the the Bush2/Cheney grab for long term bases in Iraq is all about democracy. It wasn't and isn't about that now. It's about establishing a long term US presence to control a major portion of the world's known oil reserves but the knuckleheads who hatched this idea never thought the US could be so universally disliked.

...and you keep reading those headlines from 2006 - it is a comfortable niche for you and you do well with it.