How much longer before the domestics offer a sedan that gets 52 mpg like the Honda Accord Diesel?

[wingfanjim]

Originally Posted by Floyd Robertson

FWIW, I heard on ABC News last night that Americans drove 4.5 Billion (yes, with a B) fewer miles in April 2008 compared to April 2007, so people are taking notice.

That's not shocking at all. It is interesting to see how everyone who is tied to the transportation system will be affected. Everyone from the tourism industry to state transportation departments are going to have to adjust.

[Patlanta]

Originally Posted by VanWilder

Can someone point me to some stats that say GM actually was doing some R&D on alternative fuel cars/trucks during the 90's?? I'm trying to make that point in an argument here in our office.

I say they were, but am completely backing it up with no statistics whatsoever. Her argument is that while GM was making 15 mpg trucks, "everyone" else was developing alternative fuel cars. Therefore, Toyota, Honda, and "everyone but GM" saw this fuel crisis coming.

Please help. thanks.

GM to unveil Volt electric concept car - Detroit Auto Show 2007 - MSNBC.com

Aside from the EV-1 which was supposed to come out in 1991 (Fully eletric car)

GM - Research and Development - Our Role

Accomplishments over the Years

1920s: First anti-knock gasoline additives - led to high-performance fuels

1930s: First non-flammable, low-pressure refrigerants, which made vehicle and home refrigerators practical

1940s: First high-compression, internal-combustion engines

1950s: America's first turbine-powered car; forerunner of present-day computer operating systems

1960s: Pioneering work on experimental powerplants: gas turbines, steam, free piston, and Stirling engines; electric drive; and hybrids; first comprehensive data on human injury tolerance

1970s: Zirconia exhaust gas sensor - led to the successful use of three-way catalysts; pioneering work on atmospheric chemistry; first computer simulation of an automobile crash

1980s: Magnequench rare-earth permanent magnets; industry-leading computer vision systems for manufacturing; computer-based structural and acoustic analysis for vehicle design

1990s: Integrated chassis control; series of modern experimental vehicles: advanced electric, diesel-electric hybrid, turbine-electric hybrid, compressed natural gas-fueled and fuel cell-electric vehicles; Partnership for a New Generation of Vehicles (PNGV); magneto-rheological fluids; Adaptive MagnaSteer Variable-Effort Steering

[FourSpartans]

Originally Posted by Leonidas

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/18/au...s/18DRIVE.html

Ford and GM offer diesels and have for years.


(in Europe, where they actually buy diesel cars)


I would further mention that the vehicle in question is a "demonstration vehicle." When it shows up in Honda showrooms all over the nation (including California) I will credit Honda with a major achievement.
This on-board ammonia system sounds great. I wonder if that is more costly than a urea system.

[VanWilder]

Originally Posted by Shooter

1980s: Magnequench rare-earth permanent magnets; industry-leading computer vision systems for manufacturing; computer-based structural and acoustic analysis for vehicle design

1990s: Integrated chassis control; series of modern experimental vehicles: advanced electric, diesel-electric hybrid, turbine-electric hybrid, compressed natural gas-fueled and fuel cell-electric vehicles; Partnership for a New Generation of Vehicles (PNGV); magneto-rheological fluids; Adaptive MagnaSteer Variable-Effort Steering

Thanks

[Patlanta]

Originally Posted by FourSpartans

Ford and GM offer diesels and have for years.


(in Europe, where they actually buy diesel cars)


I would further mention that the vehicle in question is a "demonstration vehicle." When it shows up in Honda showrooms all over the nation (including California) I will credit Honda with a major achievement.
This on-board ammonia system sounds great. I wonder if that is more costly than a urea system.

The only reason Ford and GM do not have diesel cars all over the American market is the emission standards. The engine itself burns cleaner than regular internal combustion engines, the problem is the lack of catalytic converter for a diesel.

[cickyle]

I'll give everyone an actual example. Just a few years ago, my brother and I bought new trucks for our company. When we ran the numbers we went with diesel for him and gas for me. The reason was he was going to drive about 30,000 - 35,000 miles a year vs my normal 20,000 and therefore the fuel savings justified spending the additional 5K that the diesel cost.

The diesel's always cost more so you have to run the numbers and see if it makes sense or not. Even if you drive a lot it still takes a number of years to experience any type of savings. Now leasing on teh other hand could be huge.

[Patlanta]

Originally Posted by VanWilder

Thanks

I also suggest checking out

Chevrolet | New Electric Car - Concept Chevy Volt

[Floyd Robertson]

Originally Posted by wingfanjim

That's not shocking at all. It is interesting to see how everyone who is tied to the transportation system will be affected. Everyone from the tourism industry to state transportation departments are going to have to adjust.

I wish I had the graphic that ABC news showed on the broadcast last night, but here's the background on the item.

Oh, and the 4.5 Billion I noted earlier? Make that 1.4 Billion. I guess I wasn't paying as close attention as I thought.

Slowdown in Road Travel Eclipses 1979 Drop: Govt

By Tom Doggett
June 19, 2008
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Americans cut down on the number of miles they drove for the sixth straight month in April, resulting in the biggest six-month decline since the oil shock of the 1979-80 Iranian revolution, new government data shows.

As record gasoline prices push more and more commuters onto public transport and vacationers to trim trips, U.S. highway travel fell 30 billion miles between November and April, down 1.7 percent from the comparable period a year earlier, according to the U.S. Department of Transportation.

That was the steepest decline since Americans cut back their driving by about 500 million miles over two years in 1979 and 1980, when there were gasoline shortages and price spikes after the Shah of Iran was overthrown, said department spokesman Doug Hecox.

In fact, the current 30-billion-mile drop in highway travel is likely more than all the previous declines combined during the 66 years that the department has been collecting such information, Hecox said.

"It's a pretty severe decline that we've seen," he said.

During April alone, Americans drove 1.4 billion fewer highway miles, down 1.8 percent from a year earlier and 400 million miles less than in March.

The high cost of gasoline has cut highway travel almost 20 billion miles, or 2.1 percent, during the first four months of this year, the department said.

Rural areas, where families drive more and spend a larger share of their income on gasoline, have seen the biggest decline in highway travel.

Travel on rural interstates for the January-April period is down 2.9 percent and off 3.1 percent on other rural highways.

A new report on Thursday from an energy advisory group reflected the drop in total highway travel, saying U.S. gasoline demand may have peaked last year and will likely decline in 2008 for the first time in 17 years.

Cambridge Energy Research Associates said long-term shifts in consumer behavior, such as buying more fuel-efficient vehicles, is helping to push gasoline demand lower.

[Patlanta]

General Motors EV1 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The EV1 was the first purpose-built electric car produced by General Motors (GM) in the United States.
The EV1 electric cars were available in California and Arizona as a lease only and could be serviced at designated Saturn retailers.

The EV1 was directly based on a prototype vehicle created by AeroVironment called the GM Impact. The Impact in turn was based on design ideas first tested out in a record-breaking race car called the Sunraycer, a solar-electric vehicle the company created in 1987 specifically to win the World Solar Challenge, a trans-Australia race open to solar powered cars only.
The predecessor of the EV1, the Impact, introduced at the January 1990 Los Angeles Auto Show, led to the Zero Emission Vehicle ("ZEV") mandate that year which was intended to curb California's growing problem with air pollution

[Patlanta]

Think you got it bad?

I believe I saw on TV yesterday that for every PENNY the gas prices increase, the United State Postal Service annual gas expenditure increases $8,000,000

[GoGrnGoWht]

Everyone else is also seeming to forget to mention that diesel engines are built stronger because of the higher compression ratio. They break down a lot less than gas engine car does, and when you want to get rid of it, it will have a higher resale value than a normal gas equivalent. We have a 92 Mercedes-Benz Diesel and a 1996 Dodge Cummins Turbo Diesel. Both have over 250,000 miles and we have NEVER touched either engines.I have heard some diesel engines lasting over a million miles! In the long run, it is much more economical to drive a diesel ANYTHING. You will save in gas cost (or in this case diesel cost), repair costs, and have a higher resale value. On top of that, you can add the promising future of Bio-diesel into the mix.

[FourSpartans]

Originally Posted by Shooter

The only reason Ford and GM do not have diesel cars all over the American market is the emission standards. The engine itself burns cleaner than regular internal combustion engines, the problem is the lack of catalytic converter for a diesel.

You're missing a major reason- customer acceptance.
US drivers haven't shown an openness towards diesel. Too many think of diesels in those clicking and cranking big rigs with sooty smoke shooting out the pipes.

Also, diesel adds a great deal of cost and complexity to the exhaust system.

[Leonidas]

Originally Posted by Floyd Robertson

FWIW, I heard on ABC News last night that Americans drove 4.5 Billion (yes, with a B) fewer miles in April 2008 compared to April 2007, so people are taking notice.

Yeah, that's a whopping 2% decrease

[Leonidas]

Originally Posted by FourSpartans

Ford and GM offer diesels and have for years.


(in Europe, where they actually buy diesel cars)


I would further mention that the vehicle in question is a "demonstration vehicle." When it shows up in Honda showrooms all over the nation (including California) I will credit Honda with a major achievement.
This on-board ammonia system sounds great. I wonder if that is more costly than a urea system.

The Honda Accord Diesel will be offered as a 2009 in U.S., and they've been selling them in Europe...so it's not a demostration vehicle

[Patlanta]

Originally Posted by FourSpartans

You're missing a major reason- customer acceptance.
US drivers haven't shown an openness towards diesel. Too many think of diesels in those clicking and cranking big rigs with sooty smoke shooting out the pipes.

Also, diesel adds a great deal of cost and complexity to the exhaust system.

Yes, perception is a problem as well. Not only the noise of a diesel , but people think they lack POWER.

Diesels burn cleaner, provide more power, and have a much larger "sweet spot" for their fuel efficiency. The general public will not realize that Diesel fuel costs more than regular fuel, but a gallon of Diesel can provide more energy then a gallon of regular and thus be of more value, even at a higher price (relative to price difference, ofcourse)

[wingfanjim]

Originally Posted by Leonidas

Yeah, that's a whopping 2% decrease

Those numbers won't go down too much as the vast majority of people's driving is their commuting. That doesn't change. It is interesting to note how many people are cutting out some of their more non-essential trips than in the past.

[Patlanta]

Originally Posted by wingfanjim

Those numbers won't go down too much as the vast majority of people's driving is their commuting. That doesn't change. It is interesting to note how many people are cutting out some of their more non-essential trips than in the past.

Last week I began carpooling .... my miles driven for work will drop from 510 miles/week to 255.

Of the 3000+ people that work in my office, many are exploring similar options.

[wingfanjim]

Originally Posted by Shooter

Last week I began carpooling .... my miles driven for work will drop from 510 miles/week to 255.

That has an effect. As do people taking the bus or train to work instead of their car. It's amazing to see the new people at the bus stop these days. Dudes in their late 40s and early 50s in nice crisp suits and ties with their oh so perfectly polished shoes. 6 months or a year or so ago, they wouldn't have been caught dead waiting for a CATA bus going downtown. It's actually quite amazing what a "social equalizer" fuel prices are becoming.

[FourSpartans]

Originally Posted by Leonidas

The Honda Accord Diesel will be offered as a 2009 in U.S., and they've been selling them in Europe...so it's not a demostration vehicle

This is from the article you linked.

"The Accord — a demonstration car provided by Robert Bosch, the German technology company, to highlight its fuel injectors and other diesel components — returned a remarkable 53 miles a gallon on the highway, 34 in the city and 44 in combined driving. Those miles included a bumper-to-bumper crawl through Manhattan, the worst possible conditions for fuel efficiency. "

The article says "demonstration car" you say "not a demonstration car."
Who's right?

[wingfanjim]

Originally Posted by Shooter

General Motors EV1 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The EV1 was the first purpose-built