How much longer before the domestics offer a sedan that gets 52 mpg like the Honda Accord Diesel?

[KingKongDeuce]

Why in the hell are we using fertilizer to help power diesel cars?

[spartans134]

Originally Posted by doc_spartan

I think the Accord will use the next gen Honda i-dtec engine. They showed it during the Detroit auto show, and in Frankfurt. It's an upgrade to the current diesels running in Europe today with the new emissions system.

The really interesting question is whether US consumers will bite on diesel engines...I'd really like to test drive one of these.

Brew, I'm curious...aside from your perceptions about the Japanese government funding them what else do you have against Honda? (In the interest of full disclosure I used to work for Honda in Marysville a decade or so ago.)

They're from Japan dude!!! It's un-American to support any corporation besides the ones who started in the US!!! Only the big 3 and UAW matter!!! The people who drive a Honda should be shipped out of the US because they don't care about the country, OMG!!!

[BrewSwillis]

Originally Posted by doc_spartan

Brew, I'm curious...aside from your perceptions about the Japanese government funding them what else do you have against Honda? (In the interest of full disclosure I used to work for Honda in Marysville a decade or so ago.)

Japanese vehicles have gone far and beyond healthy competition for domestic automakers. There are so many tricks that the Japanese use to sell their cars here, it is downright criminal.

First, the most major one, is that they have been manipulating their currency to make it advantageous to export vehicles, and not import any. Next, the Japanese government fully supports their automakers, to the point of buying out their retirees, and paying for some R&D (hybrid battery technology anyone??), just so they can stay ahead of the US, and other countries' automakers. Argue all you want about "free trade" and "global markets", but the fact is that the Japanese government is doing anything they can to keep Honda and Toyota extremely profitable. Government involvement in global "free trade" is grounds for imposing tariffs.

When the US government finally started noticing that the Japanese were selling vehicles much cheaper than the domestics could, they started to think about implementing tariffs. That was quickly shot down with a response from the Japanese automakers by raising prices. O.K., so everything seems equal again?? Not so. Instead of just raising their prices to be on par with evenly equipped domestic vehicles, they started loading their vehicles up with "standard options". This makes their vehicles appear to be comparatively priced to domestic vehicles, but now they can tout all of the added "standard options" available on their now evenly priced vehicles, that you don't get with a comparatively priced domestic vehicle.

The Japanese automakers open up just enough US auto plants to appear that they care about the people of the US, and this tactic working for that perception, because people in this country will say: "It's O.K. to buy Honda and Toyota because they make them all here now". I believe the number of imported Japanese vehicles is still more than 50%. The next saying I love is that "the Japanese are building plants in the US, while the Big 3 build plants in Mexico". The Big 3 have probably 10 times (just guessing) as many American plants as the Japanese, and only have to build in other countries to try and compete with their unfair competition. Plus, any plants that the Japanese automakers do open in the US, only help to displace workers from the Big 3...and I'm sure it's not a one for one. The net gain of US auto employees due to Japanese auto plants in the US is probably less than zero.

O.K., so you say this is just capitalism at work. If so, then why all the PR propaganda and lies from the Japanese? They always pretend like they don't want to be the top selling automakers, with the "aww shucks" attitude. Some guy from Toyota comes out and says "Our goal is to dominate the auto industry", and then later that same day, a press release comes out saying that the statement was false, and that employee was mistaken. BS!

We either make it fair competition for the Big 3, or just give it up. It cannot go on like this. We need to decide if we want to keep making vehicles in this country or not. Leaving the Big 3 out there to fend for themselves against unfair and criminal competition, will just continue to keep them behind the industry and playing catch up.

I have nothing personally against the Honda Corporation. They make fine vehicles, and are very innovative. However, I do have a problem with the unfair competition they impose on the Big 3. What could the Big 3 do with a couple thousand dollars more to spend on each and every vehicle produced (while still making the same profits), and billions of dollars in profits to spend on R&D? I guess we'll never know.

[The Anti - Bob]

Originally Posted by spartans134

You are the biggest douche on this board. All you ever do is post anti Toyota and Honda stuff, it's f'n hilarious. So because someone has a job with Honda, they're a traitor because they're trying to make a living? You're a close minded tool, f you.

\

Dare to look at these rates:

Central Bank Discount Rates: Japan (from the Bank of Japan)

Now dare to tell me that Japan isn't manipulating currency.

Since you want to speak for me, I will speak for you.

You and I both know they are and it's so fricking simple and the effects are the destruction of the dollar and the manufacturing base of the country.

Now if you like to be lied to, go for it. You see in the greater picture all Americans get to pay for the Japanese lie. Buying Japanese is akin to saying cancer is a great way to lose weight. All they are doing is playing both sides of interest rates and financing the swing with the surplus. And we get to pay even when we don't see it.

This generation will be looked upon as the biggest bunch of idiots since those that bought into Chamberlain's appeasement.

Call me what you want but at least you aren't calling me fooled. I'll leave that to you.

BTW:

US steel industry wins trade case against China - AOL Money & Finance

Chinese steel has been recognized for what they are, too bad the political structure here is too inbred with Japanese influence to do anything about their lies.

Damn I'm proud to be closed minded, it beats stupid and self absorbed any day of the week.

[doc_spartan]

Brew

Thanks for the reply!

Regarding currency manipulation, I pretty much agree. It's clear that fiscal policy in Japan is to keep their currency around 100 yen per dollar. (I think the yen has been weak against the dollar over the last few years, running about 110 to 120). The overall weakness of the dollar is probably forcing intervention by Japan's central bank to maintain their preferred ratio.

On your point about domestic production my info is pretty dated. Ten years ago the bulk of Accords and Civics sold in the US came from Marysville. My memory is that 2 door Accords were still imported...something like that? At that time the mini-van was manufactured in Canada. The CRVs all came from Japan, as did all Accura products. Since then they've built a plant in the southeast, and I've pretty much lost track of what is made domestically. It's clear that the Big 3 have more US plants, but I'm pretty confident that the bulk of Honda's sold in the US are likely produced here.

On the PR front these guys are always worried about a backlash. Everyone understands that a successful market share strategy vs a significant domestic industry has the potential for generating a terrible PR situation....hence the "aw shucks" attitude. In many ways this was probably the genesis of the original Honda PR approach...remember the "you meet the nicest people in a Honda" campaign? They still use a kind of doofy style...if you see a quirky car commercial it's likely to be theirs.

Looking at your post it seems that the core issue is your (in my opinion accurate) charge that the Japanese intentionally keep their currency weak to spur exports, and sponsor auto industry related technology development. If I'm interpreting correctly the current situation should be about perfect for the Big 3, our currency is incredibly weak right now. All we need is some politician to sponsor a project for the next big leap forward in auto technology...hydrogen, improved batteries? What would you suggest?

[spartans134]

Originally Posted by The Anti - Bob

\

Dare to look at these rates:

Central Bank Discount Rates: Japan (from the Bank of Japan)

Now dare to tell me that Japan isn't manipulating currency.

Since you want to speak for me, I will speak for you.

You and I both know they are and it's so fricking simple and the effects are the destruction of the dollar and the manufacturing base of the country.

Now if you like to be lied to, go for it. You see in the greater picture all Americans get to pay for the Japanese lie. Buying Japanese is akin to saying cancer is a great way to lose weight. All they are doing is playing both sides of interest rates and financing the swing with the surplus. And we get to pay even when we don't see it.

This generation will be looked upon as the biggest bunch of idiots since those that bought into Chamberlain's appeasement.

Call me what you want but at least you aren't calling me fooled. I'll leave that to you.

BTW:

US steel industry wins trade case against China - AOL Money & Finance

Chinese steel has been recognized for what they are, too bad the political structure here is too inbred with Japanese influence to do anything about their lies.

Damn I'm proud to be closed minded, it beats stupid and self absorbed any day of the week.

They may mess with the currency, which is the problem with these huge massive central banks (our federal reserve included). However, the US is borrowing billions of dollars from Japan, China, and Europe to finance our government. We are so far in debt that we need to do this unless we cut some government programs or raise taxes. They continue to help us because we buy their products, without them right now we would be screwed. Someone in the white house needs to take control of our massive government, it's not the fault of the US customer. It just gets me going when people call out others for the way they spend their money or where they work (I have 2 family members who work with Honda), but you're entitled to your own opinion.

[chriswyse]

I bought a Jetta TDI diesl new in 2000. I have a Jeep Liberty CRD Diesl I purchased in 2005. The Jetta never gets less than 45 mpg no matter how I drive it and on a long distance trip I can get it over 55 mpg easy. The Liberty is a blast up north hitting the trails and it does a good job towing my snowmobiles or pop-up camper. It gets about 24 mpg with everyday driving and I can get it over 30 mpg going down the highway on trips.
Diesl fuel was lower than regular gas for a long time in Michigan. I noticed the price of Diesl go way up right after Granholm did away with the 3rd axle discount truckers used to get. But I still can't see why anyone would buy a hybrid or regular gas car over a Diesl. You save the extra money you pay for the diesl and then some if you keep the car and drive it till it dies.

[iamweasel]

Originally Posted by chriswyse

I bought a Jetta TDI diesl new in 2000. I have a Jeep Liberty CRD Diesl I purchased in 2005. The Jetta never gets less than 45 mpg no matter how I drive it and on a long distance trip I can get it over 55 mpg easy. The Liberty is a blast up north hitting the trails and it does a good job towing my snowmobiles or pop-up camper. It gets about 24 mpg with everyday driving and I can get it over 30 mpg going down the highway on trips.
Diesl fuel was lower than regular gas for a long time in Michigan. I noticed the price of Diesl go way up right after Granholm did away with the 3rd axle discount truckers used to get. But I still can't see why anyone would buy a hybrid or regular gas car over a Diesl. You save the extra money you pay for the diesl and then some if you keep the car and drive it till it dies.

The diesel price increase, relative to gas, was because of the new low-sulfur diesel fuel introduced to comply with EPA '07 emissions regulations.

[GRR Spartan]

GM diesel story. Mt cousin bought one. Got rid of it in a year beuse it was in the shop more than on the road. A conversion gas to diesel GM's brainiacs came up with rather than designing an engine specific for Olds. It was a disaster. A Lansing neighbor was an engineer on the project and bailed when he saw it was a career killer.

Example, marketing was getting complaints about the glow plug light being on for extended periods. Neighbor explained that it was needed to get fuel up to temp. He was overruled and they put the glow plug on a timer so it would go off whether the fuel temp was right or not. After multiple poor decisions GM finally began getting it right. But by that time anyone who could read would never buy a GM passenger car powered by a diesel.

[BrewSwillis]

Originally Posted by doc_spartan

Brew

Thanks for the reply!

Regarding currency manipulation, I pretty much agree. It's clear that fiscal policy in Japan is to keep their currency around 100 yen per dollar. (I think the yen has been weak against the dollar over the last few years, running about 110 to 120). The overall weakness of the dollar is probably forcing intervention by Japan's central bank to maintain their preferred ratio.

On your point about domestic production my info is pretty dated. Ten years ago the bulk of Accords and Civics sold in the US came from Marysville. My memory is that 2 door Accords were still imported...something like that? At that time the mini-van was manufactured in Canada. The CRVs all came from Japan, as did all Accura products. Since then they've built a plant in the southeast, and I've pretty much lost track of what is made domestically. It's clear that the Big 3 have more US plants, but I'm pretty confident that the bulk of Honda's sold in the US are likely produced here.

On the PR front these guys are always worried about a backlash. Everyone understands that a successful market share strategy vs a significant domestic industry has the potential for generating a terrible PR situation....hence the "aw shucks" attitude. In many ways this was probably the genesis of the original Honda PR approach...remember the "you meet the nicest people in a Honda" campaign? They still use a kind of doofy style...if you see a quirky car commercial it's likely to be theirs.

Looking at your post it seems that the core issue is your (in my opinion accurate) charge that the Japanese intentionally keep their currency weak to spur exports, and sponsor auto industry related technology development. If I'm interpreting correctly the current situation should be about perfect for the Big 3, our currency is incredibly weak right now. All we need is some politician to sponsor a project for the next big leap forward in auto technology...hydrogen, improved batteries? What would you suggest?

I don't think that the US government simply leading the way to the next alternative fuel is going to do all that much to help the Big 3. I think the most realistic alternative fuel in the near future will be cellulosic ethanol made from something like switchgrass, with some kind of biological processing. That way, you don't put so much energy into making the ethanol, while getting little in return as you do currently with corn. Ethanol also uses the current infrastructure of gas stations to distribute. I guess the only better alternative would be to have home plug-in electric vehicles, like the Chevy Volt.

I will admit that Japanese vehicles are probably slightly better made than domestic vehicles, and that's partially why people are buying them......but it's now simply because the Japanese automakers can spend a few thousand more per vehicle while making the same or more profit, and have full backing of their government for R&D and competitive advantage.

The only solutions I see, are for the US population to just start buying more domestic vehicles....which I believe will probably not happen, due to the rise of the self-hating, "America is bad" population.....or the government has to intervene in some way. I also don't see that happening, because Japan, to a degree, owns our politicians. If they start regulating Japanese imports, they will suffer repercussions. The people of this country have to be the ones to refuse buying so many foreign vehicles. It's not like Japanese vehicle are that much cheaper, or that much more well made. It's mainly reputation and public perception. People who buy Japanese vehicles always try to justify their purchase, and think they are smarter then people who buy American. Smarter, because they believe they made a better choice to buy a better vehicle. People in most other countries prefer to buy vehicles made in their own country, by domestic automakers, even if those vehicles are considered inferior to imported vehicles. Not so in this country.

[iamweasel]

Originally Posted by BrewSwillis

I don't think that the US government simply leading the way to the next alternative fuel is going to do all that much to help the Big 3. I think the most realistic alternative fuel in the near future will be cellulosic ethanol made from something like switchgrass, with some kind of biological processing. That way, you don't put so much energy into making the ethanol, while getting little in return as you do currently with corn. Ethanol also uses the current infrastructure of gas stations to distribute. I guess the only better alternative would be to have home plug-in electric vehicles, like the Chevy Volt.

I will admit that Japanese vehicles are probably slightly better made than domestic vehicles, and that's partially why people are buying them......but it's now simply because the Japanese automakers can spend a few thousand more per vehicle while making the same or more profit, and have full backing of their government for R&D and competitive advantage.

The only solutions I see, are for the US population to just start buying more domestic vehicles....which I believe will probably not happen, due to the rise of the self-hating, "America is bad" population.....or the government has to intervene in some way. I also don't see that happening, because Japan, to a degree, owns our politicians. If they start regulating Japanese imports, they will suffer repercussions. The people of this country have to be the ones to refuse buying so many foreign vehicles. It's not like Japanese vehicle are that much cheaper, or that much more well made. It's mainly reputation and public perception. People who buy Japanese vehicles always try to justify their purchase, and think they are smarter then people who buy American. Smarter, because they believe they made a better choice to buy a better vehicle. People in most other countries prefer to buy vehicles made in their own country, by domestic automakers, even if those vehicles are considered inferior to imported vehicles. Not so in this country.

Great post - nice to see there are some people who seem to "get it" on this board because there are so many who don't.

It's interesting how the claws come out when discussing Japanese/Korean/Chinese vehicles vs the Domestics yet there isn't much hate for the Euros here. The US has fair and open trade with the Euros so may the best man win. With the Japanese/Korean/Chinese companies that is not the case and that is what pisses me off about that whole deal. Somebody with some onions in Washington needs to tell them to shove it up their collective arses!

[Leonidas]

Originally Posted by iamweasel

Great post - nice to see there are some people who seem to "get it" on this board because there are so many who don't.

It's interesting how the claws come out when discussing Japanese/Korean/Chinese vehicles vs the Domestics yet there isn't much hate for the Euros here. The US has fair and open trade with the Euros so may the best man win. With the Japanese/Korean/Chinese companies that is not the case and that is what pisses me off about that whole deal. Somebody with some onions in Washington needs to tell them to shove it up their collective arses!

Because making fuel efficient vehicles is such a bad thing for US dependence on imported oil

[iamweasel]

Originally Posted by Leonidas

Because making fuel efficient vehicles is such a bad thing for US dependence on imported oil

What does that have to do with equalizing fair trade?

The main reasons the asian companies can do these cars in the US so "easy" is because of:

Government subsidies
Currency manipulation
non-UAW labor
More low-cost imported parts from China, etc
Closed Japanese market

In Japan (the #2 car market in the world) those small cars have been running around for decades because nobody else is allowed in there. All they had to do is update the cars for the US and ship them out. It doesn't take as much investment to convert a car from Japan to the US like it does for the Euro cars to the US. (Japan is more US-like with their crash standards, etc.)

One of the domestic OEM's, who shall remain nameless, has tried for YEARS to get a small car program approved by the Board. That program is now slated to begin production in 2010 and it is still a money loser overall. (Only reason it got approved was because of the new CAFE laws expected to take place.) If Japan was an open market, then the domestics would have a better chance to make profitable small cars because they can spread out the fixed cost allocation as well as get economies of scale on parts purchases.

If there was true free trade between the countries the domestics would have had small cars running around a long time ago. It's not like they haven't tried - they just could never get a small program to make any money or come close to break-even. No board of directors is going to approve a program that costs $1.5 BILLION and then loses $1,000 on every car made on top of that.

Now, with the new UAW agreements, reduction in retiree health care/pensions, lower material costs because of constant pushes on the supply base, the small car programs are becoming closer to break-even for the domestics.

[BrewSwillis]

Originally Posted by Leonidas

Because making fuel efficient vehicles is such a bad thing for US dependence on imported oil

Toyota builds 10 different trucks and SUV's.

[BrewSwillis]

Originally Posted by iamweasel

What does that have to do with equalizing fair trade?

The main reasons the asian companies can do these cars in the US so "easy" is because of:

Government subsidies
Currency manipulation
non-UAW labor
More low-cost imported parts from China, etc
Closed Japanese market

In Japan (the #2 car market in the world) those small cars have been running around for decades because nobody else is allowed in there. All they had to do is update the cars for the US and ship them out. It doesn't take as much investment to convert a car from Japan to the US like it does for the Euro cars to the US. (Japan is more US-like with their crash standards, etc.)

One of the domestic OEM's, who shall remain nameless, has tried for YEARS to get a small car program approved by the Board. That program is now slated to begin production in 2010 and it is still a money loser overall. (Only reason it got approved was because of the new CAFE laws expected to take place.) If Japan was an open market, then the domestics would have a better chance to make profitable small cars because they can spread out the fixed cost allocation as well as get economies of scale on parts purchases.

If there was true free trade between the countries the domestics would have had small cars running around a long time ago. It's not like they haven't tried - they just could never get a small program to make any money or come close to break-even. No board of directors is going to approve a program that costs $1.5 BILLION and then loses $1,000 on every car made on top of that.

Now, with the new UAW agreements, reduction in retiree health care/pensions, lower material costs because of constant pushes on the supply base, the small car programs are becoming closer to break-even for the domestics.

How does nobody else understand this. All these Japanese car slappies say is that "at least the Japanese make fuel efficient cars", and "the Big 3 only make trucks and SUVs". The Big 3 couldn't build a profitable true small car because: 1) small, fuel efficient cars were not really selling in this country until like last year, and 2)Japan won't buy cars made in the US.

It's almost stupid for Toyota to build 10 different trucks and SUVs, but they do because they knew they could sell them to the dumb Americans. I'm sure nobody buys those Toyota trucks and SUVs in Japan. What's not stupid for Toyota is to build a bunch of small fuel sipping cars for their home market (because it's what they drive in their crowded cities), and then just dump them on the American market when there is a gas crunch.

[Leonidas]

Originally Posted by iamweasel

What does that have to do with equalizing fair trade?

The main reasons the asian companies can do these cars in the US so "easy" is because of:

Government subsidies
Currency manipulation
non-UAW labor
More low-cost imported parts from China, etc
Closed Japanese market

In Japan (the #2 car market in the world) those small cars have been running around for decades because nobody else is allowed in there. All they had to do is update the cars for the US and ship them out. It doesn't take as much investment to convert a car from Japan to the US like it does for the Euro cars to the US. (Japan is more US-like with their crash standards, etc.)

One of the domestic OEM's, who shall remain nameless, has tried for YEARS to get a small car program approved by the Board. That program is now slated to begin production in 2010 and it is still a money loser overall. (Only reason it got approved was because of the new CAFE laws expected to take place.) If Japan was an open market, then the domestics would have a better chance to make profitable small cars because they can spread out the fixed cost allocation as well as get economies of scale on parts purchases.

If there was true free trade between the countries the domestics would have had small cars running around a long time ago. It's not like they haven't tried - they just could never get a small program to make any money or come close to break-even. No board of directors is going to approve a program that costs $1.5 BILLION and then loses $1,000 on every car made on top of that.

Now, with the new UAW agreements, reduction in retiree health care/pensions, lower material costs because of constant pushes on the supply base, the small car programs are becoming closer to break-even for the domestics.

Yeah, moving the steering wheel, pedals etc and reversing the dash layout cost nothing

[BrewSwillis]

Originally Posted by Leonidas

Yeah, moving the steering wheel, pedals etc and reversing the dash layout cost nothing

You are borderline retarded.

Here is the Toyota Yaris. Notice all of the gauges in the center. You just have to move the wheel and pedals. Do you think they designed the gauge cluster that way for a reason??