Iraqi government pretty much a total failure to date...

[Feckweed]

Originally Posted by MSU '73

And people like you are the IGNORANT Americans, bud. An absolute fact.

I understood exactly what was going to happen with Iraq and have the track record to prove it.

You, on the other had, have remained totally clueless and ignorant about Iraq, right to this moment.

whatever you say........bud

[SpartanStu]

Originally Posted by Feckweed

whatever you say........bud

Enjoy your (ignorance is) bliss.

[MSU '73]

Originally Posted by Negotiator

Trying to remove the partisan antics here, it does seem like there's a catch-22 here. Either the Bush administration didn't know what they were getting into in Iraq, with comments like Rumsfeld's "Oh this'll be over in under a year" line and the MISSION ACCOMPLISHED banner, or they knew and strung America along for whatever motives. Incompetency at best, deception at worst. As much as we need to move forward with the current situation and focus on "What do we do from here?" I think people are justified in their being ticked off. For 8 years we handed the keys to a guy who either didn't know what he was doing or lied to us by selling us a bill of goods and used over a half trillion dollars of our money in the process.

Actually, a combination of both.

Deception to make the case that Iraq was an actual, immediate, threat to the security of the U.S. and incompetence in their astounding ignorance about the dynamics in Iraq that toppling Saddam Hussein would unleash.

The book is fairly dry reading, but Squandered Victory by Larry Diamond gives insight into the unbelievable incompetence of the bush administration. Diamond was litterally begged by Condi Rice to go to Iraq in the fall of 2003 because it had finally dawned on the bush administration that establishing a democracry in Iraq was actually going to be a difficult task. Diamond was a Stanford professor who is an expert in early democracies.

What Diamond found in Iraq was just gross ignorance and incompetence throughout the entire Bush administration and their "plan" for Iraq, hence the title of the book.

Bush actually did believe, because his advisors told him so and he was too ignorant to know better, that the whole process of establishing a western leaning, Israeli-loving, democracy would take about 6-9 months.

[Feckweed]

Originally Posted by SpartanStu

Enjoy your (ignorance is) bliss.

If you were truly as clever as you think you are you wouldn't have to explain your attempts at humor

[MSU '73]

Originally Posted by Feckweed

If you were truly as clever as you think you are you wouldn't have to explain your attempts at humor

Actually, I believe he was trying to help you out so that his humor did not fly right over your head.

[Feckweed]

Originally Posted by MSU '73

Actually, I believe he was trying to help you out so that his humor did not fly right over your head.

ok.....bud

[IndoSpartan]

I'm sorry what was the purpose of this thread?

[danb]

Originally Posted by IndoSpartan

I'm sorry what was the purpose of this thread?

I think it was to re-emphasize '73's omniscience.

[lars]

Originally Posted by MSU '73

Hey lars, how did your obssessin about Clinton "demanding" to become Vice President work out for ya? Kinda made you look like a fool, eh bud?

And thanks for showing, yet again, that you understand Iraq at an elementary school level (like all righties), while I understand Iraq at the doctoral level, as proven the past 5 years.

As I have always stated (and intelligent people understand), Iraq was never going to be won through a strictly military action. I also correctly stated that we would eventually overcome the Sunni insurgency and then move on the the next LAYERS of problems Iraq would pose and ultimately the neo-con goals of a western, Israeli-loving democracy that allowed the U.S. to project its military might into the middle east would be proven to be the idiotic pipe dream it truly was.

The goal of the surge was to give the Iraqi government time to come together and build a governing concensus. In fact, that goal is even farther away now than it was when the surge began.

Petraeus embraced the Sunni awakening and paid them off to be an ally against AQI. Not that it was a bad move because it did result in the pretty much the elimination of AQI in Iraq (which was inevitable in any case) , but Iraq is like playing pickup sticks (maybe if I dumb down my post and compare it to a child's game, you might better understand). You move one stick and some other of the sticks may also go into movement, creating a more difficult result than the original problem you were trying to solve in the first place.

Don't expect you righties to understand. You never have and likely never will.

Iraq is simply too complex for you to be able to properly understand.

Hillary is working out about as well as is Sadr is for you in toppling and taking over the Iraqi govt. You haven't been right on Iraq in a long time. Why would anyone take your view seriously now. Like most of the liberals here you wrote off Iraq a long time ago as a hopeless religious civil war that the US could never stop. I think its better to characterize you as simple minded with a myopic, short-sighted view of Iraq that was completely wrong.

[MSU '73]

Originally Posted by lars

Hillary is working out about as well as is Sadr is for you in toppling and taking over the Iraqi govt. You haven't been right on Iraq in a long time. Why would anyone take your view seriously now. Like most of the liberals here you wrote off Iraq a long time ago as a hopeless religious civil war that the US could never stop. I think its better to characterize you as simple minded with a myopic, short-sighted view of Iraq that was completely wrong.

Lars, reduced to lying. Pretty pathetic, even for you, Lars.

Please show where I ever stated Sadr would topple the Iraqi government or any other of those statements you attributed to me in your post.

Otherwise, kindly STFU, bud.

[trash]

Originally Posted by danb

I think it was to re-emphasize '73's omniscience.

or his bitterness.

[MSU '73]

Originally Posted by trash

or his bitterness.

Just pointing out the truth.

All I get from the righties is ankle biting and lying, no attempt to discuss facts.

No surprise.

[Dr. X]

Originally Posted by SpartanStu

Our military removed the wrong dictator.

[lars]

Originally Posted by MSU '73

Lars, reduced to lying. Pretty pathetic, even for you, Lars.

Please show where I ever stated Sadr would topple the Iraqi government or any other of those statements you attributed to me in your post.

Otherwise, kindly STFU, bud.

Let's see here is quick search on your quotes:

Sadr actually has a chance to pull this off and become the most powerful political figure in Iraq

[MSUber alles]

Originally Posted by greenjoker

If it were divided into 3 parts when we took out Saddam everything would be almost back to normal by now except that Bush's contractors might not be doing as well for as long.

Bingo.

This was the same situation like Yugoslavia after the USSR fell. Without a brutal strongman like Tito and the power of Moscow to hold everything together, we saw first hand how quickly groups that have hated each other for centuries would go back to killing each other en masse. Which is why they had to be split up and Yugoslavia no longer exists.

Once Saddam fell the US expected people who have hated each other's guts with a passion we'll never understand, to just join hands and live in harmony while singing "I'd like to buy the world a Coke". Of course that was just another of many mistakes GWB has made in this war.

Iraq should have been split into three sections and told "Everyone live in their part and leave the other alone and if you can't we'll fight for that group".

[IndoSpartan]

Originally Posted by MSUber alles

Bingo.

This was the same situation like Yugoslavia after the USSR fell. Without a brutal strongman like Tito and the power of Moscow to hold everything together, we saw first hand how quickly groups that have hated each other for centuries would go back to killing each other en masse. Which is why they had to be split up and Yugoslavia no longer exists.

Once Saddam fell the US expected people who have hated each other's guts with a passion we'll never understand, to just join hands and live in harmony while singing "I'd like to buy the world a Coke". Of course that was just another of many mistakes GWB has made in this war.

Iraq should have been split into three sections and told "Everyone live in their part and leave the other alone and if you can't we'll fight for that group".

Sorry, it's not that easy. Turkey never would have allowed a Kurdish homeland. I'm sure there are other considerations that would have made this a very difficult option.

[GRR Spartan]

The Iraqis allegedly have a $79 billion dollar surplus but tell health care people they have no money to fix leaking sewage seeping into hospitals. They have no money to build clinics or hire child psychologists to treat children who were kidnapped or lost their homes in the war.

My hunch is the government is corrupt and the top leaders are stashing away funds to live in London or Dubai when they are forced to flee.

[Jack78]

[FishHead]

Originally Posted by MSU '73

Lars, reduced to lying. Pretty pathetic, even for you, Lars.

Please show where I ever stated Sadr would topple the Iraqi government or any other of those statements you attributed to me in your post.

Otherwise, kindly STFU, bud.

Are you serious Clarke??

[MSU '73]

Originally Posted by lars

Let's see here is quick search on your quotes:

So Lars is now reduced to the righty tactic of trying to pass off a quote completely out of context as "proof" of his lies.

Here is my quote in its actual context. Please explain how this proves your statement of

Hillary is working out about as well as is Sadr is for you in toppling and taking over the Iraqi govt.

Originally Posted by MSU '73

The good news is that by increasing the pressure on Sadr and the Mahdi army, Sadr's options have been limited. He cannot compete militarily with the joint resources of the U.S. and the Iraqi army. And any significant fighting would result in high collatoral damage, which could hurt his standing with the Iraqi population.

So, it looks like ole Sadr is going to try to go "legitimate" and wrap himself in the cloak of Iraqi religious leaders like ali-Sistani, who is still the most powerful person in Iraq, if he is able to.

The bad news is that Sadr actually has a chance to pull this off and become the most powerful political figure in Iraq, should he get Sistani's blessing (or at least not his objection) and he is able to position himself as the "true Iraqi patriot" who was willing to comprimise to save Iraqi bloodshed, but is willing to stand up the the puppet Iraqi government and the American occupation. If the Iraqi shia truly want the U.S. out of Iraq, Sadr will be their man.

http://www.spartantailgate.com/forum...ahdi-army.html

And events to date have actually proven, once again, I called it correctly. Sadr is now trying "legitimate" methods of increasing his power, including embellishing his religious credentials and vowing to work with the government, not "topple" it as YOU claim and I never stated, provided they set an actual timetable for American withdrawal from Iraq.

So, Lars, please learn a lesson that one lie only leads to another, bud. You told one lie about what I said, then tried to weasel your way out of it by posting a statement totally out of its context.

I love it when those "values" righties so easily abandon any pretext at honesty when they think they need to.

Lars you are just an embarrassment, bud.

As is fishhead.

[Bullwrinkle]

Originally Posted by MSU '73

So Lars is now reduced to the righty tactic of trying to pass off a quote completely out of context as "proof" of his lies.

Here is my quote in its actual context. Please explain how this proves your statement of






http://www.spartantailgate.com/forum...ahdi-army.html

And events to date have actually proven, once again, I called it correctly. Sadr is now trying "legitimate" methods of increasing his power, including embellishing his religious credentials and vowing to work with the government, not "topple" it as YOU claim and I never stated, provided they set an actual timetable for American withdrawal from Iraq.

So, Lars, please learn a lesson that one lie only leads to another, bud. You told one lie about what I said, then tried to weasel your way out of it by posting a statement totally out of its context.

I love it when those "values" righties so easily abandon any pretext at honesty when they think they need to.

Lars you are just an embarrassment, bud.

As is fishhead.

Newsflash for the brilliance that is known as Ole 73. Sadr is hiding in Iran and is scared to death to come back to Iraq. He and his army and his influence have been neutralized. Thus you are wrong yet again on another prediction.

[lars]

Originally Posted by MSU '73

So Lars is now reduced to the righty tactic of trying to pass off a quote completely out of context as "proof" of his lies.

Here is my quote in its actual context. Please explain how this proves your statement of






http://www.spartantailgate.com/forum...ahdi-army.html

And events to date have actually proven, once again, I called it correctly. Sadr is now trying "legitimate" methods of increasing his power, including embellishing his religious credentials and vowing to work with the government, not "topple" it as YOU claim and I never stated, provided they set an actual timetable for American withdrawal from Iraq.

So, Lars, please learn a lesson that one lie only leads to another, bud. You told one lie about what I said, then tried to weasel your way out of it by posting a statement totally out of its context.

I love it when those "values" righties so easily abandon any pretext at honesty when they think they need to.

Lars you are just an embarrassment, bud.

As is fishhead.

Not as much as an embarrassment as you. Again, Sadr is hiding in fear for his life in Iran ...while your are predicting that his is poised to 'become the most powerful political figure in Iraq". Sorry Bud...you're the fool here.