A message to those who think the troop surge worked

[Vlad_the_Impaler]

The troop surge worked to the same extent that (as Bill Mahr described it) your Dad stopped beating up your Mom when the cops were standing outside your door. But when the cops left, he went back to kicking her ass again!

If you think that a troop surge of American soldiers has solved the differences between the Sunnis, the Sheiits and Kurds that date back who knows how many hundreds of years, you need your head examined!

No matter what we did (or do), things will go back to how they were. Count on it!

[Leonidas]

Originally Posted by Vlad_the_Impaler

The troop surge worked to the same extent that (as Bill Mahr described it) your Dad stopped beating up your Mom when the cops were standing outside your door. But when the cops left, he went back to kicking her ass again!

If you think that a troop surge of American soldiers has solved the differences between the Sunnis, the Sheiits and Kurds that date back who knows how many hundreds of years, you need your head examined!

No matter what we did (or do), things will go back to how they were. Count on it!

Are you sure? I thought that "Mission Accomplished" happened about 5 years ago?

[TK421]

Originally Posted by Vlad_the_Impaler

The troop surge worked to the same extent that (as Bill Mahr described it) your Dad stopped beating up your Mom when the cops were standing outside your door. But when the cops left, he went back to kicking her ass again!

If you think that a troop surge of American soldiers has solved the differences between the Sunnis, the Sheiits and Kurds that date back who knows how many hundreds of years, you need your head examined!

No matter what we did (or do), things will go back to how they were. Count on it!

Wouldn't this then lend credence to McCain's plan to stay in Iraq for 100 years?

[Vlad_the_Impaler]

Originally Posted by TK421

Wouldn't this then lend credence to McCain's plan to stay in Iraq for 100 years?

Yes it would. So, do you support his plan?? Have you done the math on how much that's going to cost the American tax payers over those 100 years??

[TK421]

Originally Posted by Vlad_the_Impaler

Yes it would. So, do you support his plan?? Have you done the math on how much that's going to cost the American tax payers over those 100 years??

Probably a lot less over time than it does now. Does our troop presence in Japan and Germany cost us as much as it did in WW2? (Obviously you have to adjust for 2007 dollars)

[Final Countdown]

Originally Posted by TK421

Probably a lot less over time than it does now. Does our troop presence in Japan and Germany cost us as much as it did in WW2? (Obviously you have to adjust for 2007 dollars)

japan and germany were peaceful after wwII. we were there to keep the peace and keep a military presence in a global reach. they never had a violent ethno-sectarian conflict.

[Vlad_the_Impaler]

Originally Posted by TK421

Probably a lot less over time than it does now. Does our troop presence in Japan and Germany cost us as much as it did in WW2? (Obviously you have to adjust for 2007 dollars)

Don't get all nerdy on me. This isn't a finance class. The point is that it's going to cost us BIG (you decide how many zeros you want to add at the end of BIG, and be sure to adjust for inflation).

The differences between the Sunnis, Sheiits and Kurds are shared across the Islamic faith across the world. Other Islamic nations will be adding fuel to the fire in Iraq, as it suits their own interests. That's a little different than Japan and German post WWII, don't you think??

[TK421]

Originally Posted by Final Countdown

japan and germany were peaceful after wwII. we were there to keep the peace and keep a military presence in a global reach. they never had a violent ethno-sectarian conflict.

Valid point. But back to the original thought, we pull out of Iraq now and it becomes a bigger quagmire than it already is. All options in Iraq suck.

[TK421]

Originally Posted by Vlad_the_Impaler

Don't get all nerdy on me. This isn't a finance class.

I one-pointed FI311

[MSU '73]

It's a classic "catch 22" scenario for the bush administration and also McCain. The military component of the surge worked quite well. However, the even more important political aspect of the surge has been a huge failure and, as I posted in another thread, there are major problems between the Sunni and Kurds and Sunni and Shia. There has been no major, and you would be hard pressed even to find any minor, progress made by the Iraqi government in addressing the problems in front of it, since the surge began. They can't even get the provincial elections scheduled.

Maliki has had to move to the right to protect against Sadr gaining additional popularity based on his opposition to continued American occupation without a defined timetable for leaving Iraq. Smart political move on his part. But the end result is that the neo con and bush administration dream of projecting American military power into the middle east through Iraq is dead. Whatever slim chance that dream has was lost after we so badly bungled the first few weeks of the occupation.

Iraq is and always has been much more complex than 99% of Americans comprehend. I accept the fact that righties will never understand it, they just don't have the capability.

[SBSpartan]

I love how libs will cry the blues about paying for places our military has to be but they will gladly pay any amount put on the table for great ideas like universal healthcare.

PS - If you think the point of the surge was to solve the philosophical differences between two groups of people you really are pretty dumb Vlad.

[Vlad_the_Impaler]

Originally Posted by TK421

All options in Iraq suck.

Now you're starting to get a sense of what a bad idea it was to go into Iraq!

If you could go back to the arguments we had on this board back before we invaded, you'd see that the smarter folks in this group () predicted exactly where we'd be today in Iraq - STUCK!!!

[Final Countdown]

Originally Posted by SBSpartan

I love how libs will cry the blues about paying for places our military has to be but they will gladly pay any amount put on the table for great ideas like universal healthcare.

PS - If you think the point of the surge was to solve the philosophical differences between two groups of people you really are pretty dumb Vlad.

point of contention bolded. we never "had to be" in iraq

[Vlad_the_Impaler]

Originally Posted by SBSpartan

I love how libs will cry the blues about paying for places our military has to be but they will gladly pay any amount put on the table for great ideas like universal healthcare.

At least we would get something out of universal heanthcare: UNIVERSAL HEALTHCARE. And none of our soldiers would have to die over universal healthcare (although some conservatives may commit suicide). What are we getting out of the Iraq war, except for an increasing national debt, more dead soldiers and more career islamic terrorists??

PS - If you think the point of the surge was to solve the philosophical differences between two groups of people you really are pretty dumb Vlad.

If the point of the surge was to have a temporary drop in sectarian violence, allowing a temporary goverment to temporarily pretend to take control, so that we could save face and start our pull-out, then job well done!!!

Other than that, there was no point to the surge.

[SBSpartan]

Originally Posted by Final Countdown

point of contention bolded. we never "had to be" in iraq

If you think letting a muderous dictator stay in power and continue to excecute his own people you have no soul and really don't understand what the USA stands for in history or today.

Do I have to remind you of the mass graves? The rapes? The murders? The hangings? The torture? The brutal regime that was Saddam Hussein was a horrible scar on the Middle East and you are insane for thinking he was better off being left in power so he could continue to brutalize his own people.

Maybe you should read about members of the Olympic team who were tortured for their performances?

You have a lot to learn about why getting rid of Saddam Hussein was not only the right thing to do but the only thing to do.

[SBSpartan]

Originally Posted by Vlad_the_Impaler

At least we would get something out of universal heanthcare: UNIVERSAL HEALTHCARE. And none of our soldiers would have to die over universal healthcare (although some conservatives may commit suicide). What are we getting out of the Iraq war, except for an increasing national debt, more dead soldiers and more career islamic terrorists??



If the point of the surge was to have a temporary drop in sectarian violence, allowing a temporary goverment to temporarily pretend to take control, so that we could save face and start our pull-out, then job well done!!!

Other than that, there was no point to the surge.

Yup you will get something out of Universal Healthcare. Less money in your pockets and lesser coverage. Less choices of coverage and the inability to have voluntary surgery. Sweet!

[Vlad_the_Impaler]

Originally Posted by SBSpartan

If you think letting a muderous dictator stay in power and continue to excecute his own people you have no soul and really don't understand what the USA stands for in history or today.

Do I have to remind you of the mass graves? The rapes? The murders? The hangings? The torture?

Up to this point, you could've been talking about Saudi Arabia, a supposed ally of ours.

[SBSpartan]

Originally Posted by Vlad_the_Impaler

Up to this point, you could've been talking about Saudi Arabia, a supposed ally of ours.

Thank your for admitting you have no point.

Have a good one.

[Final Countdown]

Originally Posted by SBSpartan

If you think letting a muderous dictator stay in power and continue to excecute his own people you have no soul and really don't understand what the USA stands for in history or today.

Do I have to remind you of the mass graves? The rapes? The murders? The hangings? The torture? The brutal regime that was Saddam Hussein was a horrible scar on the Middle East and you are insane for thinking he was better off being left in power so he could continue to brutalize his own people.

Maybe you should read about members of the Olympic team who were tortured for their performances?

You have a lot to learn about why getting rid of Saddam Hussein was not only the right thing to do but the only thing to do.

most of middle eastern leaders are a "scar on the middle east". why not take them all out

sadaam was a bad person. no contention. but why did the administration lie, whip up propoganda and play on public fear to get us to go to war? they lied on the rationale for war. the US did not have to go to war. the US did not have to pursue an unethical and unconstitutional agenda to deceive the american people and then mask their lies by using moral arguments. your argument is just a way to save face over the fact that the war was a deception and a disaster.

[Vlad_the_Impaler]

Originally Posted by SBSpartan

Yup you will get something out of Universal Healthcare. Less money in your pockets and lesser coverage.

Link please.

Less choices of coverage

How many choices does one really need for 99% of medical issues??? I'm pretty much ok with the nearest doctor. Sure, for that 1% where I'd like to shop around, that would suck to not have a choice.

and the inability to have voluntary surgery. Sweet!

Again, what percentage of the population ever needs voluntary surgery??? Why do conservatives worry about the rare exceptions, and ignore 99% of what people are likely to face?

As someone who has excellent medical coverage through my employer (at a reasonable cost), I AM MORE THAN WILLING TO GIVE IT UP FOR GOVERNMENT RUN BUT GUARANTEED UNIVERSAL MEDICAL COVERAGE FOR ALL AMERICANS.