Group of 70 scientists from a paleontology conference takes a field trip to the Creation Museum

[Green Genes]

Originally Posted by Dorian

Microbiology. Biology on a micro scale. There are genetic codes that define the diversity of life on this planet. From an ant to a sea gull. A harp seal to a wood chuck. I've discussed this a great deal.

Just open your mind up. Question the evidence, or lack of evidence. Look around you, at what you see in the world, in the simplest of terms. Is everything you see a big mistake? An accident? Does that make sense?

Not quite. Microbiology primarily deals with microscopic life - organisms that cannot be studied without the aid of a microscope. There are some exceptions such as some aspects of human biology (primarily immunology and the study of human cells in tissue culture) which some people include in the area of microbiology. However, what you are talking about is not microbiology.

Yes, it is very important to open your mind but you have to be careful not to spill the contents. Scientists understand and accept that nothing is ever proven by science. I think you will find most scientist receptive to new ideas if presented with data to support that idea. It may not be easy but it can be done but you have to provide data, not just state that there is a lack of data.

[Green Genes]

Show me data and I will look at it. Arguments are not data. I could argue all sorts of hair brained ideas (actually not because I'm not very creative ) but why should anyone listen to me if I don't provide any evidence to support my idea.

Originally Posted by Dorian

I do have one more question.

We've debated this awhile. Is there anyone who came here believing that evolutionary theory explains life on earth, after hearing some opposing arguments, are willing to admit they now question the validity of that belief?

[Dorian]

Thank you for your responses.

I do wish to point out, I asked for evidence of fossils depicting interim species with legs, but not fins, and I got Green Spartan showing me... several fish fossils.

Did you know that Darwin recognized this as a problem too? He researched the fossil record and noticed that the fossilized animals were fully developed. He continued to look, and research for partially developed species - particularly the link between humans and apes.

Trouble is - He couldn't find 'em. So what did he say?

"We just haven't found enough fossils!"

That was over 100 years, and a million fossil finds, ago. And guess what? Same problem exists.

So the new logic is fish fins can be used as feet (per that link from Green Spartan). Okay. So when is the last time you saw a 50 lb fish walk down the street? Sorry, mud skippers that are 6-inches long and flop around on land don't count. You need a pelvis to walk. By the same token, where is the fish today with a partially formed pelvis?

So I think that makes Evolution: 0, Intelligent Design: 2 on the two questions:

1. Provide an example of a beneficial mutation in nature.

2. Provide examples in the fossil record of interim species.

By the way - you KNOW I'm right - you just won't admit it.

[Green Genes]

Now it is time to ask you to open your mind. You have been presented several clear examples of beneficial mutations in nature and fossil evidence for interim species but you are not willing to accept them. Why not? Because you were looking for something very specific and unable to see something that is not quite how you imagined? That is being extremely narrow minded. The fossil evidence that GreenSpartan presented clearly shows transition from the bone structure of a fin to the bone structure of a hand/foot. Are you saying you disregard the evidence of bone structure because the organism looks like a "fish"? Again, that is extremely narrow minded.

Originally Posted by Dorian

Thank you for your responses.

I do wish to point out, I asked for evidence of fossils depicting interim species with legs, but not fins, and I got Green Spartan showing me... several fish fossils.

Did you know that Darwin recognized this as a problem too? He researched the fossil record and noticed that the fossilized animals were fully developed. He continued to look, and research for partially developed species - particularly the link between humans and apes.

Trouble is - He couldn't find 'em. So what did he say?

"We just haven't found enough fossils!"

That was over 100 years, and a million fossil finds, ago. And guess what? Same problem exists.

So the new logic is fish fins can be used as feet (per that link from Green Spartan). Okay. So when is the last time you saw a 50 lb fish walk down the street? Sorry, mud skippers that are 6-inches long and flop around on land don't count. You need a pelvis to walk. By the same token, where is the fish today with a partially formed pelvis?

So I think that makes Evolution: 0, Intelligent Design: 2 on the two questions:

1. Provide an example of a beneficial mutation in nature.

2. Provide examples in the fossil record of interim species.

By the way - you KNOW I'm right - you just won't admit it.

[Andy_H]

Originally Posted by Dorian

Thank you for your responses.

I do wish to point out, I asked for evidence of fossils depicting interim species with legs, but not fins, and I got Green Spartan showing me... several fish fossils.

Did you know that Darwin recognized this as a problem too? He researched the fossil record and noticed that the fossilized animals were fully developed. He continued to look, and research for partially developed species - particularly the link between humans and apes.

Trouble is - He couldn't find 'em. So what did he say?

"We just haven't found enough fossils!"

That was over 100 years, and a million fossil finds, ago. And guess what? Same problem exists.

So the new logic is fish fins can be used as feet (per that link from Green Spartan). Okay. So when is the last time you saw a 50 lb fish walk down the street? Sorry, mud skippers that are 6-inches long and flop around on land don't count. You need a pelvis to walk. By the same token, where is the fish today with a partially formed pelvis?

So I think that makes Evolution: 0, Intelligent Design: 2 on the two questions:

1. Provide an example of a beneficial mutation in nature.

2. Provide examples in the fossil record of interim species.

By the way - you KNOW I'm right - you just won't admit it.

You really need to separate evolution from Darwin. First, Darwin wasn't the first or only person to espouse evolution (see Alfred Russell Wallace). Second, science has had 150 years to expand on the works of these early evolutionists. There are clearly things that they had missing or incorrect or incomplete - you would expect that over 150 years. There are plenty of things that Newton, Galileo, Einstein, got wrong or missed, but that doesn't discredit their work or the scientific fields they are associated. You waste your energy focusing on individual scientists.

As for your questions...
1. Look in the mirror - there are countless beneficial mutations that have served humanity well. Bipedal walking, larger brain, skin pigmentation variations are just some of the obvious mutations that have benefitted us in our path from our early ancestors.

2. An example in the fossil record of interim species:



If you truly are interested in learning more about how evolution works, I might suggest picking up a copy of Richard Dawkins' "Climbing Mount Improbable" at your local library. It takes a look at some case studies in evolution, including eyes, wings, and spider webs, and is tailored for a lay audience.

[mattricide]

Originally Posted by Dorian

I do wish to point out, I asked for evidence of fossils depicting interim species with legs, but not fins, and I got Green Spartan showing me... several fish fossils.

So I think that makes Evolution: 0, Intelligent Design: 2 on the two questions:

1. Provide an example of a beneficial mutation in nature.

2. Provide examples in the fossil record of interim species.

The above is predicated on the fact that you are forcing people to accept a transitional fossil that only YOU can define. Soon you will move the bar even further. Anyway, here is what you have asked for THIS time.

Eupodophis descouensi

Since I didn't see your earlier point I will be just and only remove one point. Anyway, to answer your "remaining" questions in this post:

1. Nylonase

2. Pakicetus, or more recent, Ambulocetus. And, as before, Eupodophis descouensi.

So I guess that is actually 2-nil evolution now.

[GreenSpartan]

Originally Posted by mattricide

The above is predicated on the fact that you are forcing people to accept a transitional fossil that only YOU can define. Soon you will move the bar even further. Anyway, here is what you have asked for THIS time.

Eupodophis descouensi

....

2. Pakicetus, or more recent, Ambulocetus. And, as before, Eupodophis descouensi.

So I guess that is actually 2-nil evolution now.

Ok, now Dorian has fossil intermediates for limbs from three different lineages, with two going "backwards. Fish to amphibians, development of whales, and lizards to snakes. Of course NONE of these should exist according to him.


Here's a fun game for you, Dorian.












Which skulls are chimps/apes/monkeys and which are humans? If there are no intermediates there should be a clear line between those. So by all means, take your pick.

[Z.Cavaricci]

Dorian, I am still waiting for you to address my post. Simple questions I just would like to see some sort of answer for.

[TorontoSpartan87]

Originally Posted by Z.Cavaricci

Dorian, I am still waiting for you to address my post. Simple questions I just would like to see some sort of answer for.

....yo, Zed, you still waiting???

[mattricide]

Originally Posted by TorontoSpartan87

....yo, Zed, you still waiting???

This might take a while.