Is Pres. Obama lying about his administration's goal re: single payer?

[EComCon]

The thread linked below basically nails the health care 'reform' sham:

The "Public Option" has been a red herring all along, to divert you from the real issue: MANDATES - Democratic Underground

[Zakath]

Originally Posted by Dr. X

I understand your points and agree with many of them. My problem with a government takeover of the current system is that I distrust government as much as I distrust unregulated and corrupt private enterprise.

IMO, exchanging one broken system for another is not the answer.

The difference being that the unregulated and corrupt private enterprise usually doesn't have the power of an army (of tax lawyers and, if necessary, soldiers) at its disposal to force its will on you.

[Enrico Palazzo]

wait a minute, during the campaign you cons said the Administration's secret goal would be to destroy Christianity and turn us into a Muslim theocracy. Make up your minds with your crackpot, BS paranoid claims.

[Seth Galifianakis]

Originally Posted by Zakath

The difference being that the unregulated and corrupt private enterprise usually doesn't have the power of an army (of tax lawyers and, if necessary, soldiers) at its disposal to force its will on you.

When's the last time the Army was used to force the government's will on you?

[Madhatter536]

Originally Posted by Zakath

The difference being that the unregulated and corrupt private enterprise usually doesn't have the power of an army (of tax lawyers and, if necessary, soldiers) at its disposal to force its will on you.

The health insurance industry doesn't have any lawyers? Somehow I don't think that's true. When my son-in-law had to have double hernia surgery the insurance company approved it beforehand, then denied the claim after the surgery. When he appealed the decision the insurance lawyers filed a lawsuit charging him with fraud and the denial was upheld. The kicker is my son-in-law was never notified of the suit or court hearing until after the ruling against him. Then the hospital's lawyers sued him for payment and attached his wages and have taken his tax refund for 5 years now. He was also not notified of this lawsuit until it had been decided against him. So your contention the that the health insurance industry is helpless to enforce it's will is ludicrous.

I also want to thank the numerous responses that confirmed my belief that conservatives do indeed view health care as a commodity to be exploited. One even stated that everyone gets free health care just by going to an ER. ER's routinely send people home without treatment so that claim is patently untrue, but nice try. The most laughable arguments against providing universal health care are the ones citing Canada or the UK as examples of failed systems. Both of these countries have better quality health care than the US, and France, Germany, Sweden and other European countries surpass them. "We don't want some bureaucrat between us and our doctor" is the cry of anti-reformers. Wake up folks, they are there now. They are just private bureaucrats instead of government bureaucrats. And private bureaucrats don't have to answer to anyone. Heck, Blue Cross just denied a woman's maternity claim because her maternity coverage didn't cover the labor, delivery or hospital stay. What else is there? Yeah, health care is indeed a commodity, and the sooner that attitude is replaced the better.

[Redwingenator]

Originally Posted by Madhatter536

The health insurance industry doesn't have any lawyers? Somehow I don't think that's true. When my son-in-law had to have double hernia surgery the insurance company approved it beforehand, then denied the claim after the surgery. When he appealed the decision the insurance lawyers filed a lawsuit charging him with fraud and the denial was upheld. The kicker is my son-in-law was never notified of the suit or court hearing until after the ruling against him. Then the hospital's lawyers sued him for payment and attached his wages and have taken his tax refund for 5 years now. He was also not notified of this lawsuit until it had been decided against him. So your contention the that the health insurance industry is helpless to enforce it's will is ludicrous.

I also want to thank the numerous responses that confirmed my belief that conservatives do indeed view health care as a commodity to be exploited. One even stated that everyone gets free health care just by going to an ER. ER's routinely send people home without treatment so that claim is patently untrue, but nice try. The most laughable arguments against providing universal health care are the ones citing Canada or the UK as examples of failed systems. Both of these countries have better quality health care than the US, and France, Germany, Sweden and other European countries surpass them. "We don't want some bureaucrat between us and our doctor" is the cry of anti-reformers. Wake up folks, they are there now. They are just private bureaucrats instead of government bureaucrats. And private bureaucrats don't have to answer to anyone. Heck, Blue Cross just denied a woman's maternity claim because her maternity coverage didn't cover the labor, delivery or hospital stay. What else is there? Yeah, health care is indeed a commodity, and the sooner that attitude is replaced the better.

Someone must have just watched
and is now blindly following one of the most absurd "documentaries" of all time.

[Madhatter536]

Originally Posted by Redwingenator

Someone must have just watched
and is now blindly following one of the most absurd "documentaries" of all time.

Fail, but nice try.

[Seth Galifianakis]

Originally Posted by Redwingenator

Someone must have just watched
and is now blindly following one of the most absurd "documentaries" of all time.

Is it really inconceivable to you that someone could have a problem with the current health care system in the US, and it didn't originate because they watched "Sicko"? There are millions of Americans that have actually lived the horror stories people like Moore talk about. I'm guessing that would motivate someone to act more than watching a movie, but that's just me.

[Redwingenator]

Originally Posted by Madhatter536

The health insurance industry doesn't have any lawyers? Somehow I don't think that's true. When my son-in-law had to have double hernia surgery the insurance company approved it beforehand, then denied the claim after the surgery. When he appealed the decision the insurance lawyers filed a lawsuit charging him with fraud and the denial was upheld. The kicker is my son-in-law was never notified of the suit or court hearing until after the ruling against him. Then the hospital's lawyers sued him for payment and attached his wages and have taken his tax refund for 5 years now. He was also not notified of this lawsuit until it had been decided against him. So your contention the that the health insurance industry is helpless to enforce it's will is ludicrous.

I also want to thank the numerous responses that confirmed my belief that conservatives do indeed view health care as a commodity to be exploited. One even stated that everyone gets free health care just by going to an ER. ER's routinely send people home without treatment so that claim is patently untrue, but nice try. The most laughable arguments against providing universal health care are the ones citing Canada or the UK as examples of failed systems. Both of these countries have better quality health care than the US, and France, Germany, Sweden and other European countries surpass them. "We don't want some bureaucrat between us and our doctor" is the cry of anti-reformers. Wake up folks, they are there now. They are just private bureaucrats instead of government bureaucrats. And private bureaucrats don't have to answer to anyone. Heck, Blue Cross just denied a woman's maternity claim because her maternity coverage didn't cover the labor, delivery or hospital stay. What else is there? Yeah, health care is indeed a commodity, and the sooner that attitude is replaced the better.

My cousin that lives in the UK had brain cancer. They were able to cure his cancer with cutting edge technology. While he was in the hospital they straightened his teeth and performed laser eye surgery to correct his near sightedness. They even put him up in a 5 star hotel with room service and a personal masseuse during his recovery.

[GRR Spartan]

This administration will start incremental change. Obama and others in his administration know they won't get what they might want in a perfect world so you start with the public option being a state by state decision.

They are not oblivious to the fact that the Canadian system is also based on provincial choice.

[Dr. X]

Originally Posted by Seth Galifianakis

When's the last time the Army was used to force the government's will on you?

Well, you had that time during the Great Depression when the Bonus Army was attacked in D.C.

You had Kent State.

During Hurricane Katrina, law abiding citizens in the NO burbs had their legal firearms taken away in door to door searches.

I know some hair splitters will say it wasn't the army, but a lot of innocent folks got their asses kicked in Pittsburgh recently during the G20.

And the political conventions in Denver and the Twin Cities in 2008 were also a chance for government thugs to flex their near monopoly muscle on the use of force.

Chicago 1968 was also a good example.

Oh yeah, there was the Waco Massacre and Ruby Ridge too.

[Madhatter536]

Originally Posted by Dr. X

Well, you had that time during the Great Depression when the Bonus Army was attacked in D.C.

Correct, army was led by McArthur.

You had Kent State.

False, not the army. Ohio National Guard was called out by governor.

During Hurricane Katrina, law abiding citizens in the NO burbs had their legal firearms taken away in door to door searches.

Correct, by law enforcement officers, not army.

I know some hair splitters will say it wasn't the army, but a lot of innocent folks got their asses kicked in Pittsburgh recently during the G20.

Correct, not the army.


And the political conventions in Denver and the Twin Cities in 2008 were also a chance for government thugs to flex their near monopoly muscle on the use of force.

Correct, but by law enforcement officers, not the army.

Chicago 1968 was also a good example.

Again, law enforcement officers, not the army.

Oh yeah, there was the Waco Massacre and Ruby Ridge too.

Once again, law enforcement officers, not the army.

[TrapperGus]

Originally Posted by Compound

ok, good question. It doesn't infringe on their right to healthcare, it infringes on their rights. There are two ways that by expecting health care to be a "fundamental right" that you are infringing on other people's rights. The first way is that there is a finite amount of Dr's, nurses, etc. These people also have a finite amount of time in their life. To force them to take care of everybody, is (as another poster said above), essentially enslaving them. What if I think watching basketball is a fundamental right. Should I be able to pass legislation and force Lebron James to play basketball for me? Furthermore, the equipment, R&D, their education, etc all cost money. Their are reasons that health care costs money. You can't just demand health insurance, it has to be paid for.

Which leads me to the second way that it infringes on other people's rights. Instead of just paying the Dr's, what you are doing is stealing the money (individual property) of more successful people (through taxes) and then giving to to those who are less successful to pay for what you deem as "a fundamental right". Money is private property. Money is the fruit of someone's labor. They have a finite amount of money because they have a finite amount of time and life. By taking their money to pay for another person's healthcare, you are essentially stealing portions of their life for what you deem as your "fundamental right".

Besides being ethically wrong, against our constitution, etc, it is simply wrong to take from one person and give it to another person just because it fits your idea of social justice. Further more, at what point does this end? There is always going to be somebody who deems something a fundamental right that is not. Some people will try to legislate housing, food, etc. You can't enslave one person to give to another person just because you think society would be better for it.

First - no one is forcing health care professionals to work against their will any more than we force anyone else to work against their will. This argument just fails from the git-go.

Second it would be really interesting to see a defense of the position that taxes are not Constitutional. Please provide a quote of the Constitution or court ruling based on that same that says this...

[greenjoker]

Originally Posted by Redwingenator

Single payer will destroy private insurance.

Private health insurance has destroyed the cost of health care in the U.S.
One shouldn't need insurance when health care is either affordable or free to those who need it.

[Redwingenator]

Originally Posted by greenjoker

Private health insurance has destroyed the cost of health care in the U.S.
One shouldn't need insurance when health care is either affordable or free to those who need it.

That's a noble philosophy, but now it's time to step away from the imaginary utopia and into the real world.

[Redwingenator]

Originally Posted by greenjoker

Private health insurance has destroyed the cost of health care in the U.S.
One shouldn't need insurance when health care is either affordable or free to those who need it.

Health insurance is expensive for a variety of reasons. How about if we address why it is expensive and find solutions instead of blowing up the current system.

1) There is little competition between insurance companies. Solution: Allow insurance companies to compete across state lines.

2) Doctors perform numerous unnecessary tests and procedures to protect themselves against frivolous malpractice suits. Solution: Tort reform

3) Most health insurance plans have small copays and minimal deductibles which leaves little incentive for the patient to contain costs. Solution: Health savings accounts/Flex accounts/etc, combined with high deductible insurance. Since the patient controls the actual dollars they can control what procedures and treatments their dollars will pay for.

The problem with these solutions is that they result in giving more control to the people and less to the government.

[caspper69]

Originally Posted by Redwingenator

Health insurance is expensive for a variety of reasons. How about if we address why it is expensive and find solutions instead of blowing up the current system.

1) There is little competition between insurance companies. Solution: Allow insurance companies to compete across state lines.

2) Doctors perform numerous unnecessary tests and procedures to protect themselves against frivolous malpractice suits. Solution: Tort reform

3) Most health insurance plans have small copays and minimal deductibles which leaves little incentive for the patient to contain costs. Solution: Health savings accounts/Flex accounts/etc, combined with high deductible insurance. Since the patient controls the actual dollars they can control what procedures and treatments their dollars will pay for.

The problem with these solutions is that they result in giving more control to the people and less to the government.

lol. Delusional.

I'm sure your employer doesn't supplement your health insurance costs, right?

[Redwingenator]

Originally Posted by caspper69

lol. Delusional.

I'm sure your employer doesn't supplement your health insurance costs, right?

Why is my logical approach to reform delusional?

[Madhatter536]

Originally Posted by Redwingenator

Why is my logical approach to reform delusional?

Because none of the "issues" you cite as the reason for the exorbitant cost of health insurance are actually the reason for the exorbitant cost of health insurance. Greed by the private insurance companies is the sole cause of high priced insurance. To believe otherwise is delusional.

[tuff bob]

Originally Posted by Madhatter536

Greed by the private insurance companies is the sole cause of high priced insurance. To believe otherwise is delusional.

IF that was true - and it isn't - the best way to limit "high priced greed" is via intense competition.

[Redwingenator]

Originally Posted by Madhatter536

Because none of the "issues" you cite as the reason for the exorbitant cost of health insurance are actually the reason for the exorbitant cost of health insurance. Greed by the private insurance companies is the sole cause of high priced insurance. To believe otherwise is delusional.

You can't believe that "Greed by the private insurance companies is the sole cause of high priced insurance."

The average cost of a hip replacement $39,299
Heart bypass surgery $70,000
The average cost of an MRI $2,500

So lets look at a person who is 64 years old who had a heart bypass 3 years ago, and a hip replaced last year. He is scheduled for his other hip to be replaced later this year which will also require more advanced imaging.

That's over $150,000 in surgeries and imaging for what is becoming more and more common. That also doesn't include standard doctor visits, medications, physical therapy, etc.

[Madhatter536]

Originally Posted by Redwingenator

You can't believe that "Greed by the private insurance companies is the sole cause of high priced insurance."

The average cost of a hip replacement $39,299
Heart bypass surgery $70,000
The average cost of an MRI $2,500

So lets look at a person who is 64 years old who had a heart bypass 3 years ago, and a hip replaced last year. He is scheduled for his other hip to be replaced later this year which will also require more advanced imaging.

That's over $150,000 in surgeries and imaging for what is becoming more and more common. That also doesn't include standard doctor visits, medications, physical therapy, etc.

Greed by insurance companies is the sole cause of high priced insurance. There is no other cause.