Public Option.

[Redwingenator]

Originally Posted by Vlad_the_Impaler

So you agree that the deck was stacked in their favor for the past 70 years anyway?

And now you're complaining about the deck being stacked with a govt option??

Yes and Yes. Your point is that because the deck has been stacked for years it's cool if we stack in support of a new entity?

How about if we just get rid of antitrust, open up states to accept insurance coverage across state lines, protect doctors from frivolous malpractice claims, and push for more individual control over your health care dollars? We can't do that, we need 2000 pages of bureaucracy and the formation of entirely new government offices and programs intended to create a monopoly on 1/6th of the economy. Then we get to see the result of 1400 health insurance companies layoff people and hundreds go completely out of business. I don't think the stimulus is going to find those people a job. I guess the government health insurance plan is going to be so awesome that none of that matters. It's so good in fact that the politicians in Washington refuse to have it for themselves. Wake the heck up and look at the bag of lies and soon to be broken promises the politicians are peddling.

[spartanMF]

Here is an article about ObamaCare for ya.


Nancy Pelosi's New Health-Care Bill - WSJ.com

[GRR Spartan]

Except for Lars who's got a dog(s) in this fight I can't believe the number of folks lining up to defend companies that have inceased their CEO's income 5 to 10 times in the last 10 years to the tune of $30 million a year plus for not making anything except paper trails

[lars]

Originally Posted by spartanMF

Here is an article about ObamaCare for ya.


Nancy Pelosi's New Health-Care Bill - WSJ.com

Wow..here is a quote from the first paragraph.

Speaker Nancy Pelosi has reportedly told fellow Democrats that she's prepared to lose seats in 2010 if that's what it takes to pass ObamaCare, and little wonder. The health bill she unwrapped last Thursday, which President Obama hailed as a "critical milestone," may well be the worst piece of post-New Deal legislation ever introduced.

I can't believe this will pass. Demms are going to take a beating for this mess. It probably will mean Obama is a one and done POTUS.

[lars]

Wow...look who the govt 'subsides' in this bill. You make $96K and the govt picks up most of your tab for healthcare insurance..

Most of the money goes into government-run "exchanges" where people earning between 150% and 400% of the poverty level—that is, up to about $96,000 for a family of four in 2016—could buy coverage at heavily subsidized rates, tied to income. The government would pay for 93% of insurance costs for a family making $42,000, 72% for another making $78,000, and so forth.

[FC Juventus]

the people are not buying the crap that the libs are selling so its time for another name change.

just like how "global warming" (hoax) has become "climate change" (same hoax). there is no longer a "public option" (scam), it is now a "consumer option" (same scam).

[GRR Spartan]

I also love the fact that Limbaugh and others are rounding up the dopes to get them all upset about individuals making more than $500K and couples making over $1 million/year seeing higher taxes to pay for health care. That whopping 0.3% of the US population.

Lets see all the people who will never come close following Limbaugh and the rest of the talking heads who all fit that profile. Yeah, they're all folks just like us. Riiight

[Redwingenator]

Originally Posted by GRR Spartan

I also love the fact that Limbaugh and others are rounding up the dopes to get them all upset about individuals making more than $500K and couples making over $1 million/year seeing higher taxes to pay for health care. That whopping 0.3% of the US population.

Lets see all the people who will never come close following Limbaugh and the rest of the talking heads who all fit that profile. Yeah, they're all folks just like us. Riiight

When is enough enough?

Top 1% pay 40.42% of ALL income taxes.

Top 5% pay 60.63% of ALL income taxes.

Top 10% pay 71.22% of ALL income taxes.

Top 25% pay 86.59% of ALL income taxes.

Top 50% pay 97.11% of ALL income taxes.

Bottom 50% pay 2.89% of ALL income taxes.


The top wage earners are the ones that reinvest their money and own large successful businesses. The more money you leach away from them, the less they have to reinvest in the private sector. At what point do the wealthy simply pack their bags and move? Don't those that spend their life working hard to be successful have a right to keep the fruits of their labor?

[AvgMSUJoe]

Originally Posted by Papa Chubby

I don't believe that the public option will be economically viable if it is really self-sufficient, must compete with private companies on a level playing field, and is not massively subsidized with taxpayer money.

I also don't believe that democrats will allow the public option to die gracefully if it is unviable. This is the critical centerpiece of their program. They will find a way to throw trillions of taxpayer dollars at it, which will in turn drive private insurance companies out of business.

So you are basing your opinion off of information you believe will happen as opposed to what is written in the actual proposal?

If they had iron clad wording that said after $X they would not receive a penny from the federal govt and the govt is requiring repayment by Y years would you change your mind?

[Papa Chubby]

Originally Posted by AvgMSUJoe

So you are basing your opinion off of information you believe will happen as opposed to what is written in the actual proposal?

If they had iron clad wording that said after $X they would not receive a penny from the federal govt and the govt is requiring repayment by Y years would you change your mind?

Nope. There is no wording which is sufficiently ironclad to keep the government out of my pocket when they feel they need the money.

Do you know what would go a long way toward changing my mind? A sound business plan. Show me where the money is coming from, and where they intend to spend it. What are the premiums and copays going to be? What will be covered, and what will not be covered? How, exactly, does the plan intend to compete with private insurance in terms of cost and services and coverage?

[lars]

Originally Posted by GRR Spartan

I also love the fact that Limbaugh and others are rounding up the dopes to get them all upset about individuals making more than $500K and couples making over $1 million/year seeing higher taxes to pay for health care. That whopping 0.3% of the US population.

Lets see all the people who will never come close following Limbaugh and the rest of the talking heads who all fit that profile. Yeah, they're all folks just like us. Riiight

GRR you miss the importance of that .3%. They are the small business owners who often file their business taxes on personal tax forms..bumping income over the $500K level. They are also the ones who create the bulk of new jobs in this country and employ roughly 70% of Americans. So taxing them at high rates will discourage or take away money that can be use to expand and hire more people.

Bottom line is that hurting those 'rich guys' only hurt the small guy by putting him out of a job or stopping the creation some new jobs.

[GRR Spartan]

Lars, please don't tell me that the majority of small business owners in the US have incomes of $500,000 per year. If they do they have idiots for accountants. Thats a nice homily the Chamber of Commerce and the Manufacturer's Association likes to peddle.

According to a 2006 survey done by salary.com the average small business salary is $233,600/year. About one in fifty households earn more than $250,000 per year whether its a small business owner or an employee and we're talking dual income of over $1 million.

[greenjoker]

Originally Posted by Redwingenator

When is enough enough?

Top 1% pay 40.42% of ALL income taxes.

Top 5% pay 60.63% of ALL income taxes.

Top 10% pay 71.22% of ALL income taxes.

Top 25% pay 86.59% of ALL income taxes.

Top 50% pay 97.11% of ALL income taxes.

Bottom 50% pay 2.89% of ALL income taxes.


The top wage earners are the ones that reinvest their money and own large successful businesses. The more money you leach away from them, the less they have to reinvest in the private sector. At what point do the wealthy simply pack their bags and move? Don't those that spend their life working hard to be successful have a right to keep the fruits of their labor?

When one considers that the top 20% have most of the wealth to start with, the numbers don't seem too bad.

Plus for each dollar the poorest people receive from the government the richest get many more because of their influence and lobbying.

I wonder if those executives in the bankrupt financial firms should complain about paying their taxes when the gov. saved their jobs to the tune of billions in bonuses?

[GRR Spartan]

I always laugh when folks like redwingenerator are so vociferous in their support of the Top 1 %. It shows those folks know how to spread their propaganda to protect themselves.

[spartanMF]

So, the top 5% paying 61 percent of all taxes is not enough?

[GRR Spartan]

Originally Posted by spartanMF

So, the top 5% paying 61 percent of all taxes is not enough?

You don't get it. They don't pay income tax. They pay on unearned income and even then their effective rate is below yours if you are at $75K/year of less.

Warren Buffet pays less as a percentage of his income than his administrative assistants.

If you believe any economic theory the money the insurance companies are gobbling up at accelerating rates could be used in different parts of the economy. But after the last 8 years that top 1% loves the status quo.

[Green Cheesiest™]

I think we should just let those born with health conditions suffer and die...I mean its natural selection right? I mean why should they be more deserving of health care than anyone else? Why should we subsidize their health care? Its not our problem they can't keep a job and can't get health coverage.

[greenjoker]

Originally Posted by Green Cheesiest™

I think we should just let those born with health conditions suffer and die...I mean its natural selection right? I mean why should they be more deserving of health care than anyone else? Why should we subsidize their health care? Its not our problem they can't keep a job and can't get health coverage.

It would have been just fine with me if a middle-aged man who constantly needed heart work couldn't afford it and lacked enough insurance to pay for it - Dick Cheney.

[ERR]

I'm sure I will end up regretting wandering onto Wells, but here it goes anyway....

Originally Posted by Green Cheesiest™

I think we should just let those born with health conditions suffer and die...I mean its natural selection right? I mean why should they be more deserving of health care than anyone else? Why should we subsidize their health care? Its not our problem they can't keep a job and can't get health coverage.

I can't speak for everyone, but I think most would say that a nation has a responsibility to care for those who cannot care for themselves. I believe we are morally obligated to do so.

The problems arise when the nation begins to care for people who don't or won't care for themselves. So, what portion of the uninsured population can't care for itself vs. won't care for itself? I doubt if anyone really knows.

Originally Posted by Bob Sakimano

I like how conservatives like to say that the government can't run anything efficiently and then jump up and cheer the government-run military at every opportunity..

Is it not clear that conservatives feel the role of government is to protect its people? It's perfectly fair to question the decisions that have been made regarding missions of the military, but I don't think it's hard to distinguish between government-run bureaus and a national defense.

[Green Cheesiest™]

BTW my post was in total sarcasm....I hope no one thought I was that ridiculous...but this is Wells, you never know

[ERR]

Originally Posted by Green Cheesiest™

BTW my post was in total sarcasm....I hope no one thought I was that ridiculous...but this is Wells, you never know

I knew you were being sarcastic, and I responded with that understanding.

[RQA]

Originally Posted by GRR Spartan

I always laugh when folks like redwingenerator are so vociferous in their support of the Top 1 %. It shows those folks know how to spread their propaganda to protect themselves.

GRR is always happy to tax somebody else at a higher rate than he pays.

[Redwingenator]

Originally Posted by GRR Spartan

You don't get it. They don't pay income tax. They pay on unearned income and even then their effective rate is below yours if you are at $75K/year of less.

Warren Buffet pays less as a percentage of his income than his administrative assistants.

If you believe any economic theory the money the insurance companies are gobbling up at accelerating rates could be used in different parts of the economy. But after the last 8 years that top 1% loves the status quo.

He also donates an insane amount of money to charities.

[tuff bob]

Originally Posted by Redwingenator

He also donates an insane amount of money to charities.

in other words, when Buffet has a choice between the "public option" (taxes) and the "private option" (charity), he picks against the "public option"

[Redwingenator]

Originally Posted by tuff bob

in other words, when Buffet has a choice between the "public option" (taxes) and the "private option" (charity), he picks against the "public option"

Buffett is an interesting dude. He has spent his life living very very modestly while making billions. Now in his later years he has become a proponent for taxing the very wealthy and increasing death taxes (likely because of his views on making kids earn things on their own.)