Public Option.

[vator88]

Originally Posted by Redwingenator

Buffett is an interesting dude. He has spent his life living very very modestly while making billions. Now in his later years he has become a proponent for taxing the very wealthy and increasing death taxes (likely because of his views on making kids earn things on their own.)

No. Buffett makes his money coming and going with respect to death taxes. He has signigicant holdings in life insurance companies, (you don't pay taxes on life insurance directly, although they can be used to size up overall estate tax), and therefore a number of large estates and family owned businesses buy huge amounts of life insurance to offset the costs of the taxes. Those that don't, he buys at distress prices when the owner dies. A business that is worth 50 mill, may owe a tax of 45%, but can't generate the cash to pay it. Thus, the heirs are better off selling at a sum that let's them pocket something to pay it. Buffett has bought a number of companies in this situation.

[GRR Spartan]

Do you mean Estate taxes. Those taxes that stop vast wealth stagnating with few individuals? The way it happened in England? Nice dodge boys. Start another thread. By the way, the first $1 million is exempt.

The same folks fighting health care reform are in this fight and have millions to fund both convincing schleps in that $51K median income that this is their fight.

[ninowesco]

Originally Posted by GRR Spartan

Do you mean Estate taxes. Those taxes that stop vast wealth stagnating with few individuals? The way it happened in England? Nice dodge boys. Start another thread. By the way, the first $1 million is exempt.

The same folks fighting health care reform are in this fight and have millions to fund both convincing schleps in that $51K median income that this is their fight.

it's more than a million

in fact, it's unlimited next year - then it goes back to a million

bush tried

and yea, the fact that they can get the middle class and poor rednecks to rail against this is borderline shocking

[vator88]

Originally Posted by GRR Spartan

You don't get it. They don't pay income tax. They pay on unearned income and even then their effective rate is below yours if you are at $75K/year of less.

Warren Buffet pays less as a percentage of his income than his administrative assistants.

If you believe any economic theory the money the insurance companies are gobbling up at accelerating rates could be used in different parts of the economy. But after the last 8 years that top 1% loves the status quo.

So Warren says the rich should be taxed more, so my admin asst can be taxed less, and therefore pocket more. The real question then is why is Warren such a cheap ass?

[GRR Spartan]

Originally Posted by ninowesco

it's more than a million
in fact, it's unlimited next year - then it goes back to a million
bush tried
and yea, the fact that they can get the middle class and poor rednecks to rail against this is borderline shocking

Its was $2 million in '08, 3.5 million in 2009, unlimited this year and back to $1 million in 2011.

But this thread is about the public option and those who invest in the rigged game of Health insurance stocks don't want to upset the apple cart.

[tuff bob]

Originally Posted by ninowesco

and yea, the fact that they can get the middle class and poor rednecks to rail against this is borderline shocking

that might have something to do with all those middle class families that live in big cities that have interest only mortgages on 500k homes

[Redwingenator]

Originally Posted by GRR Spartan

The hard line "conservatives" live in an economic fantasy world. The are even dragging out Dr. Laffer to tell anyone who will listen that he was right but it just wasn't done properly last time.

Dr. Laffer got half of it right. Cutting taxes including income, capital gains on the wealthiest Americans did allow them to retain more wealth. But the second half of the formula (the part about the wealth subsequently trickling down) never came to pass.

Reagan, Bush1 and Bush2 tried to balance this by adding public sector jobs to keep the illusion of growth. Clinton raised taxes for those at the top and two things happened. The economy grew and there were more private sector jobs added than public sector job in his 8 years. Bush2 cuts taxes again and adds more public sector jobs vs private sector jobs.

Along with tax increases to Clinton levels I also favor addressing the Alternative minimum tax by adjusting it to inflation to reflect 2009 dollars and than having an annual adjustment based on inflation. That's something neither party wants to address.

As soon as someone can show me how a shrinking middle class can recover while paying out more and more of their income in health care costs to private insurance companies that are increasing faster than any additional taxes. Median US household income is about $51K/yr. A public option gives all families to pick and choose rather than being locked in to a system that can refuse coverage if you change jobs or make Cobra payments so high you choose between home and insurance.

To find a solutions we have to find some answers first.
What are the reasons that the cost of health insurance is going up?

- There are many more expensive procedures being performed that insurance companies are paying for (MRI, CT, knee scopes, cardiac caths, mamography, knee/hip/shoulder replacements, etc.)

- The insurance in the USA saves everyone and treats everyone. An infant born 3 months early with a slew of life long health issues is not a financial calculation, but a human being with dignity and is treated accordingly. A 85 year old man with COPD, cardiac issues, and dementia is also treated as a human being with dignity and not just a financial calculation. If your 90 year old grandma with dementia breaks her hip she gets a new one, no questions asked. The US has a much higher moral standard in how it views human life and extending a person's life by days or months is worth it because life is precious.

- Insurance cards are treated like credit cards. If you have a cough you can go to the doctor and get some medicine. If your knee is sore you can get a script, and an x-ray. Gone are the days when minor health issues were addressed with old wives tales and home remedies that usually just allowed the ailment to run its natural course. (This is generally the same thing that happens by going to the doctor, except with a $75-$200 bill to the insurance company.)

- Doctors perform lots of unnecessary tests to protect themselves from frivolous malpractice claims. Malpractice claims threaten not only a doctor's reputation, but also their ability to participate with health insurance companies. The cost of malpractice insurance is an associated cost.

- People are taking more medications then ever in the history of this country. If you're mildly depressed, here is a pill. Can't sleep, here is a pill. High cholesterol, here is a pill. Many of these medications cost a patient a massive $15 copay but then the insurance company picks up the extra $150. If a person is on several expensive medications this can be a huge reoccurring cost to the insurance company.

- Baby boomers. As a society we have a large portion of the population that is entering the retirement age and their health care expenditures increase more and more each year and people "wear out." Knee scopes/replacements, low back surgeries, heart surgeries, physical therapy, medications, and the list goes on and on.

- There is a severe lack of competition between insurance companies because of individual state laws. If there are 1400 insurance carriers in the US by only 20 can participate in each state there is a lack of competition.

Now that we have addressed the reasons for health insurance costs spiraling out of control, we can find ways to reduce costs.

#1) The insurance in the USA saves everyone and treats everyone. (This is a decision that the people of this country need to decide what they are comfortable with. Does your baby born 3 month premature with a future filled with invasive cardiac surgeries and mental ******ation get the invasive treatment it needs at birth to live, or do the doctors deny care because politicians in D.C. said it not worth the cost?)

#2) Insurance cards are treated like credit cards. (The private industry is already moving towards solving this with high deductible insurance and HSAs/flex cards to offset the cost. When you have to use your own money that you set aside for specifically health care YOU are empowered with dictating how YOUR health care dollars are spent.)

#3) People are taking more medications then ever in the history of this country. (Pushing for more generic brands is a start, but what really needs to happen is a cultural understanding that you don't need a pill for everything. There also needs to be much greater separation between the pharmaceutical industry and doctors.)

#4) Baby boomers. They are here and aside from sending out firing squads to thin the heard they pose a tremendous challenge for the health care system. High deductible insurance and HSA accounts could help to reduce their usage of health care.

#5) There is a severe lack of competition between insurance companies because of individual state laws. Open up insurance companies so they can compete nationally.

The bottom line is that instead of attempting to understand why health insurance is so expensive liberals are taking Obama/Pelosi idea that it's all the insurance companies' fault because of their greed. I don't mean to absolve the greed that is taking place, but it is an insignificant amount compared to the $2.2 trillion dollars spent on health care every year. The arguement that the government health insurance can "fix" the system is a lazy attempt at best to solve the problem. If the breaks on your car were making a grinding noise, would you take your car to the junk yard and scrap it, then go out and buy a new one? OR would you find out why they are not working correctly and fix the problem?

[GRR Spartan]

Canada keeps looking better and better. For health insurance and even economic stability. Their banks didn't go hog wild with credit, they pay higher taxes and have a more stable economy.

It appears most of our conservative posters love the whipsaw effects of wild swings in health care and other "market driven" issues.

Public option and taking away the anti-trust exception will get the fear of God into some of these companies or they won't survive.

[tuff bob]

Originally Posted by GRR Spartan

Canada keeps looking better and better. For health insurance and even economic stability

[Booyah]

Hypocritical BS from the right.

[MSU '73]

Originally Posted by Redwingenator

To find a solutions we have to find some answers first.
What are the reasons that the cost of health insurance is going up?

- There are many more expensive procedures being performed that insurance companies are paying for (MRI, CT, knee scopes, cardiac caths, mamography, knee/hip/shoulder replacements, etc.)

- The insurance in the USA saves everyone and treats everyone. An infant born 3 months early with a slew of life long health issues is not a financial calculation, but a human being with dignity and is treated accordingly. A 85 year old man with COPD, cardiac issues, and dementia is also treated as a human being with dignity and not just a financial calculation. If your 90 year old grandma with dementia breaks her hip she gets a new one, no questions asked. The US has a much higher moral standard in how it views human life and extending a person's life by days or months is worth it because life is precious.

- Insurance cards are treated like credit cards. If you have a cough you can go to the doctor and get some medicine. If your knee is sore you can get a script, and an x-ray. Gone are the days when minor health issues were addressed with old wives tales and home remedies that usually just allowed the ailment to run its natural course. (This is generally the same thing that happens by going to the doctor, except with a $75-$200 bill to the insurance company.)

- Doctors perform lots of unnecessary tests to protect themselves from frivolous malpractice claims. Malpractice claims threaten not only a doctor's reputation, but also their ability to participate with health insurance companies. The cost of malpractice insurance is an associated cost.

- People are taking more medications then ever in the history of this country. If you're mildly depressed, here is a pill. Can't sleep, here is a pill. High cholesterol, here is a pill. Many of these medications cost a patient a massive $15 copay but then the insurance company picks up the extra $150. If a person is on several expensive medications this can be a huge reoccurring cost to the insurance company.

- Baby boomers. As a society we have a large portion of the population that is entering the retirement age and their health care expenditures increase more and more each year and people "wear out." Knee scopes/replacements, low back surgeries, heart surgeries, physical therapy, medications, and the list goes on and on.

- There is a severe lack of competition between insurance companies because of individual state laws. If there are 1400 insurance carriers in the US by only 20 can participate in each state there is a lack of competition.

Now that we have addressed the reasons for health insurance costs spiraling out of control, we can find ways to reduce costs.

#1) The insurance in the USA saves everyone and treats everyone. (This is a decision that the people of this country need to decide what they are comfortable with. Does your baby born 3 month premature with a future filled with invasive cardiac surgeries and mental ******ation get the invasive treatment it needs at birth to live, or do the doctors deny care because politicians in D.C. said it not worth the cost?)

#2) Insurance cards are treated like credit cards. (The private industry is already moving towards solving this with high deductible insurance and HSAs/flex cards to offset the cost. When you have to use your own money that you set aside for specifically health care YOU are empowered with dictating how YOUR health care dollars are spent.)

#3) People are taking more medications then ever in the history of this country. (Pushing for more generic brands is a start, but what really needs to happen is a cultural understanding that you don't need a pill for everything. There also needs to be much greater separation between the pharmaceutical industry and doctors.)

#4) Baby boomers. They are here and aside from sending out firing squads to thin the heard they pose a tremendous challenge for the health care system. High deductible insurance and HSA accounts could help to reduce their usage of health care.

#5) There is a severe lack of competition between insurance companies because of individual state laws. Open up insurance companies so they can compete nationally.

The bottom line is that instead of attempting to understand why health insurance is so expensive liberals are taking Obama/Pelosi idea that it's all the insurance companies' fault because of their greed. I don't mean to absolve the greed that is taking place, but it is an insignificant amount compared to the $2.2 trillion dollars spent on health care every year. The arguement that the government health insurance can "fix" the system is a lazy attempt at best to solve the problem. If the breaks on your car were making a grinding noise, would you take your car to the junk yard and scrap it, then go out and buy a new one? OR would you find out why they are not working correctly and fix the problem?

Riddle me this, bud.

Other western countries, like Germany, France and the Netherlands, all have SUPERIOR healthcare to the US at drastically lower costs (in most cases 40% or less).

Let me say it again: Superior healthcare for all, at much less expensive costs.

Riddle me why.

[RQA]

Originally Posted by MSU '73

If you can't figure out what GRR said

I know exactly what GRR said, he wants to raise other peoples taxes.

1. GDP in the 50's grew 51.1% the total decade, in adjusted dollars. GDP in the 60's grew 52.2%, in spite of massive spending on the Vietnam war. Hardly an increase at all. Plus:


So, RQA, once again the FACTS punk your delusions.

Originally Posted by the facts

The economy turned sharply downward in the summer of 1957 and reached its low point in the spring of 1958. Industrial production fell 14 percent, corporate profits plummeted 25 percent and unemployment rose to 7.5 percent

I guess my facts punk your facts . Oh and because of this steep recesion, JFK was elected. And what was his tax policy?? Do you think JFK was a punk too??

2. No corporate taxes = but then, what else is new from "rqa".

Corporations don't pay taxes, people do.

3. Capital gains should be taxed as ordinary income. Don't expect you to understand.

fine with me as long as you set the income tax rate at 15% or so

4. Duh. The rich are paying a large percentage of taxes, because their wealth is literally skyrocketing while the lower 60-90% are stagnant, at best. That was factually shown in what I posted. Evidently you did not make the connection. Again, no surprise.

Please explain how taking 50% of somebody's income and using it to bail out banks or spending on flying the Speaker of the House around in a 757 helps a poor person?

[tuff bob]

Originally Posted by MSU '73

Let me say it again: Superior healthcare for all, at much less expensive costs.

or

Lottery held to pick new patients in Canadian clinic!

[Redwingenator]

Originally Posted by MSU '73

Riddle me this, bud.

Other western countries, like Germany, France and the Netherlands, all have SUPERIOR healthcare to the US at drastically lower costs (in most cases 40% or less).

Let me say it again: Superior healthcare for all, at much less expensive costs.

Riddle me why.

The insurance in the Netherlands is very interesting, but mostly privately ran with the government insurance providing for the elderly and dying. It could serve as a model for health care reform for the US, except that Obama and Pelosi are pushing for the single payer.

[greenjoker]

Originally Posted by GRR Spartan

Canada keeps looking better and better. For health insurance and even economic stability. Their banks didn't go hog wild with credit, they pay higher taxes and have a more stable economy.

It appears most of our conservative posters love the whipsaw effects of wild swings in health care and other "market driven" issues.

Public option and taking away the anti-trust exception will get the fear of God into some of these companies or they won't survive.

I wish we could import Canadian politics and many of their social and business laws and ethics.

[Green Cheesiest™]

Originally Posted by tuff bob

or

Lottery held to pick new patients in Canadian clinic!

Why do you think our healthcare is so superior?

There are lotteries with health insurance right here in America. Some people get their everyday treatments and meds paid for, others can't even get the same treatments even partially covered from their insurers...these are basic quality of life treatments. Treatments that allow someone to go a day with maybe some semblance of normal.

[Krazykyle]

Originally Posted by MSU '73

Riddle me this, bud.

Other western countries, like Germany, France and the Netherlands, all have SUPERIOR healthcare to the US at drastically lower costs (in most cases 40% or less).

Let me say it again: Superior healthcare for all, at much less expensive costs.

Riddle me why.

First of all your superior healthcare argument is derived from the WHO rankings which are inherently flawed because of the criteria which have a bias towards any form of socialized care.

Secondly there is many explanations for why those countries have better quantifiable statistics such as life expectancy and I personally do not believe that is because of the healthcare system. A lot of it is the culture and infrastructure of our country which places us at a greater health risk on a daily basis. This includes the fact we drive more often than many of those countries, there is many more firearm related homicides, and also we lead a much unhealthier lifestyle while being exposed to more pollution. It is a fallacy to attribute all of the problems with the level of health in the US to healthcare.

If you believe that preventative care on an individual level is going to change that than I believe you are mistaken. While certain preventative health treatments such as vaccines have reduced the disease burden on population, many of the things that people believe to reduce the burden of disease (screening most specifically) change health outcomes very little.

Which therein lies the problem with the current bill. We are inherently an unhealthy nation and the current bill aims only to begin providing care for more people, not to decrease costs or to increase efficiency. Unless we begin a massive public health campaign the healthcare costs are going to continue to rise, and adding more people to the system is only going to make those costs rise more quickly.

You are always quick to blame conservatives for the problems, and fault the right for not caring about the people, but you need to realize people in our nation need to start caring about themselves and until that happens we are always going to have a greater disease and health burden than other countries and changing how physicians are paid is not going to change that.

[Zakath]

Originally Posted by tuff bob

I'll help him pack...

[RQA]

Originally Posted by Zakath

I'll help him pack...

GRR is looking for the perfect place to move.

A place where:

-other people pay for his health care
-other people pay a higher tax rate than he does
-he can sue as many people as he wants for anything thing he wants without
personally being on the hook when he loses the case

I think that about covers it.

[AvgMSUJoe]

Originally Posted by AvgMSUJoe

So you are basing your opinion off of information you believe will happen (cause rush said so) as opposed to what is written in the actual proposal?

Back to the point of this thread.

[GRR Spartan]

Originally Posted by Zakath

I'll help him pack...

You don't have that kind of motivation.

Typical tough guy talk from the all talk no action right wing.

Tell me about fiscal responsibility, tell me about private job creation, tell me about free market oversight correcting problems.

You can't.

Conservatives couldn't live with the Dutch model because health insurance is required, not optional. The private health insurance companies are under strict government control ( there isn't any government insurance, all private companies) and we know you couldn't abide with government tightly regulating insurance companies.

You want free market rule and if that leaves 35 to 48 million on their own you are okay as long as you've got yours. bob is the same way. He moved her and he still whines on a daily basis. But seeing people go bankrupt because they have to decide to lose everything to pay for care never seems to bother folks like you and bob.

[tuff bob]

Originally Posted by GRR Spartan

. But seeing people go bankrupt because they have to decide to lose everything to pay for care never seems to bother folks like you and bob.

Well if you don't want to go bankrupt, and can't afford to pay cash, buy insurance.

If my house gets destroyed, I can't afford to buy a new one, so I buy home owners insurance.

If I hit somebody with my car, even if its not my fault, I can't afford the victim's medical bills, so I buy insurance.

If me or my wife die, the other can't afford to pay all the bills, so I buy insurance.

[Papa Chubby]

Originally Posted by AvgMSUJoe

Back to the point of this thread.

As you wish...

Why would any sane person want the government to spend nearly a trillion dollars of taxpayer money on a poorly planned endeavor that has absolutely no chance of succeeding? I don't really want to demonstrate a point that badly. I'd rather have the trillion dollars.

[MSU '73]

Originally Posted by RQA

I know exactly what GRR said, he wants to raise other peoples taxes.

I guess my facts punk your facts . Oh and because of this steep recesion, JFK was elected. And what was his tax policy?? Do you think JFK was a punk too??

Corporations don't pay taxes, people do.

fine with me as long as you set the income tax rate at 15% or so

Please explain how taking 50% of somebody's income and using it to bail out banks or spending on flying the Speaker of the House around in a 757 helps a poor person?

rqa, since, as usual, all you offer is yourself talking out of your ass, I accept your concession to the facts I presented.

The "recession" you talk about ended in Febuary 1961, rqa. And from that point through 1964, it was a period of growth. The "jfk tax cuts" did not even go into effect until 1964, rqa


You should spare yourself further embarassment and just shut up, bud, because it is obvious you are totally ignorant about what you are trying to talk about, as usual.

[MSU '73]

Originally Posted by Redwingenator

The insurance in the Netherlands is very interesting, but mostly privately ran with the government insurance providing for the elderly and dying. It could serve as a model for health care reform for the US, except that Obama and Pelosi are pushing for the single payer.

The problem is the pricing structure in the US compared to every other industrialized country in the world. Our healthcare system has allowed US pricing to go totally out of control. That is the real problem. And one that is not being addressed efficiently in any of the current healthcare "solutions" being discussed.

US healthcare costs need to be brought in line with those of the other industrialized countries. That is the first step to bringing true healthcare reform.

One way or another, that is going to happen. Most likely it will be caused by a total meltdown of our economic system when healthcare costs get to be such a large part of our GDP that they will have destroyed a major part of our consumer economy. Hopefully our politicians will address the problem before then, but, given the special interests in play on both sides of the ailse, I doubt whether they will have the integrity to do what is right by the American people.