Public Option.

[AvgMSUJoe]

Originally Posted by PRStoetzer

I can't believe doctors make so little money in the UK and France. That's a ton of schooling for little award.

There are a ton of jobs right here in the US that pay little or nothing compared with their schooling requirements. Maybe doctor becomes something like librarian and you do it for the love of the job not to be wealthy...

[AvgMSUJoe]

FWIW, I didn't read the entire BS thread, but wasn't JFK's tax rates outrageous compared to today's? Like double what we are paying?

Maybe JFK wanted a tax break because taxes were actually too high then. (compared to the "slash taxes at all costs" mantra of today...)

[MSU '73]

Originally Posted by AvgMSUJoe

FWIW, I didn't read the entire BS thread, but wasn't JFK's tax rates outrageous compared to today's? Like double what we are paying?

Maybe JFK wanted a tax break because taxes were actually too high then. (compared to the "slash taxes at all costs" mantra of today...)

If you would have wasted your time reading that strand of the thread, you would have seen that "rqa" made an ignorant statement about growth rates in the 50's and tax cuts. I factually showed him to be incorrect and the rest is rqa trying to backtrack out of his incorrect statement, without admitting the truth. Par for the course with "rqa".

And yes, tax rates were still much higher then, after the JFK tax cuts, then they are now.

[Krazykyle]

Originally Posted by MSU '73

That explanation doesn't hold water.

Doesn't explain why our physicians are compensated better than theirs.

Why is our market compensating doctors at a higher level than any other market?

How come our market doesn't compensate bus drivers higher than all other markets? Hard to drive a bus from a different country, right? That service is not transferable, at all. Yet US bus drivers are quite poorly compensated compared to the rest of the industrialized world.

Bus Driver Average Salary Income - International Comparison

So, riddle me that.

1. We have historically placed a greater monetary value on physician services than in other countries.

2. Your data on bus drivers is not even accurate. Our bus drivers work 29.4 hrs and are paid accordingly while in other countries the average is about 10 hours higher, if our bus drivers worked 46.3 hrs like they do in Australia their adjusted pay would be about 2500.

[MSU '73]

Originally Posted by Krazykyle

1. We have historically placed a greater monetary value on physician services than in other countries.

2. Your data on bus drivers is not even accurate. Our bus drivers work 29.4 hrs and are paid accordingly while in other countries the average is about 10 hours higher, if our bus drivers worked 46.3 hrs like they do in Australia their adjusted pay would be about 2500.

1. That will have to change.

2. Even using your hourly calculation, it fits my argument perfectly. So, the US driver is making a slight premium over the German and Aussie driver, on a per hour basis. Fine. That is exactly what I stated in my previous post. If the US wanted to give a 15-25% premium over the cost of German/French doctors, I had no problem with that. Because it still is light years cheaper than the current non sustainable wages being paid.

Thanks for supporting my point.

[Krazykyle]

Originally Posted by MSU '73

1. That will have to change.

2. Even using your hourly calculation, it fits my argument perfectly. So, the US driver is making a slight premium over the German and Aussie driver, on a per hour basis. Fine. That is exactly what I stated in my previous post. If the US wanted to give a 15-25% premium over the cost of German/French doctors, I had no problem with that. Because it still is light years cheaper than the current non sustainable wages being paid.

Thanks for supporting my point.

I really want to know what sort of salaries you think physicians are making here? Typically most salary services are reporting the gross, which I am sure you know, but do you recognize how high insurance premiums are for most physicians. I would be surprised if most GPs are pulling in much above one hundred thousand a year. While this may seem like a lot to the average person, I know you understand the reasons why that salary is not that high.

Furthermore read this

General Physician Average Salary Income - International Comparison

Then take a look at the average hours a physician works in other developed countries. 40 hrs! We just had a meeting here at our medical school with career advisement who indicated to us that the typical GP is going to be working 58 hrs a week.

If I use your theorized 15-20% surcharge on physician salaries and assume American physicians typically are working 55-60 hr weeks, you will find that using the top 3 world wide salaries that we are close to the point we are at now.

It is not physician salaries that are out of whack here.

Trust me if Obama is able to pay me 120 grand a year to work a 40 hr work week ... sign me up. That is not going to happen, so I'd rather be well compensated for the 60 hr work week that US physicians work.

[Redwingenator]

Originally Posted by MSU '73

So, please explain why doctors in the US deserve a higher pay scale than doctors in France or Germany?

Again,why should doctors be excused from being measured against their global peers?

Certainly you righties have no problem doing that with production workers, right?

Why the DOUBLE STANDARD??????????????????

For the 10th time I will explain this. Doctors make less overseas because the government continues to slash reimbursement to doctors.

This is not a hard concept to grasp. Medicare, medicaid, and all single payer systems have done the same thing over and over and over. The government moves to be the only health insurance company, then they realize it's expensive so they reduce reimbursement to doctors, then doctors get paid less, and less people become doctors, and then there is a shortage of doctors. The government option destroys the concept of supply and demand.

[Redwingenator]

Originally Posted by MSU '73

So, please explain why doctors in the US deserve a higher pay scale than doctors in France or Germany?

Again,why should doctors be excused from being measured against their global peers?

Certainly you righties have no problem doing that with production workers, right?

Why the DOUBLE STANDARD??????????????????

You know you're right. We should probably just pay doctors $40,000. Imagine the savings in health care costs!

[tuff bob]

Originally Posted by Krazykyle

Then take a look at the average hours a physician works in other developed countries. 40 hrs! We just had a meeting here at our medical school with career advisement who indicated to us that the typical GP is going to be working 58 hrs a week. .

What's the betting those doctors hours are limited ("rationed") by the government?

[Redwingenator]

Originally Posted by tuff bob

What's the betting those doctors hours are limited ("rationed") by the government?

Dentists in the UK have a quota they have to meet every year in regards to patient numbers. Once they meet their quota the government stops paying, so they lock the doors and go on vacation.

[ninowesco]

Originally Posted by Redwingenator

Dentists in the UK have a quota they have to meet every year in regards to patient numbers. Once they meet their quota the government stops paying, so they lock the doors and go on vacation.

that's outlandish

no one in the UK goes to the dentist

[MSU '73]

Originally Posted by Krazykyle

I really want to know what sort of salaries you think physicians are making here? Typically most salary services are reporting the gross, which I am sure you know, but do you recognize how high insurance premiums are for most physicians. I would be surprised if most GPs are pulling in much above one hundred thousand a year. While this may seem like a lot to the average person, I know you understand the reasons why that salary is not that high.

Furthermore read this

General Physician Average Salary Income - International Comparison

Then take a look at the average hours a physician works in other developed countries. 40 hrs! We just had a meeting here at our medical school with career advisement who indicated to us that the typical GP is going to be working 58 hrs a week.

If I use your theorized 15-20% surcharge on physician salaries and assume American physicians typically are working 55-60 hr weeks, you will find that using the top 3 world wide salaries that we are close to the point we are at now.

It is not physician salaries that are out of whack here.

Trust me if Obama is able to pay me 120 grand a year to work a 40 hr work week ... sign me up. That is not going to happen, so I'd rather be well compensated for the 60 hr work week that US physicians work.

I don't know a single GP working 58 hours a week. Would love to see some actual proof of that claim. Just 6 - 10 hour days. Right.

And that is just the "typical" GP, eh? Must be some that are working 72 hour weeks to make up for my own GP who works 42-45 hours a week (he is my golfing buddy).

[tuff bob]

Originally Posted by ninowesco

no one in the UK is able to go to the dentist

fixed it for you

BBC - Search results for queue to register for dentist

[MSU '73]

Originally Posted by tuff bob

fixed it for you

BBC - Search results for queue to register for dentist

One story in the past THREE YEARS.

another tuff bob FAIL.

[Redwingenator]

Originally Posted by MSU '73

One story in the past THREE YEARS.

another tuff bob FAIL.

Tuff bob: There is a guy with a gun.

MSU '73: Where I can't see him, he must be a right wing illusion.

Tuff bob: No, he is right there with a gun in his hand, he is the guy yelling.

MSU '73: If you righties stopped provoking him he would stop yelling.

Tuff bob: He has a gun and is about to start shooting.

MSU '73: He hasn't shot anyone yet, your accusations are baseless.

Tuff bob: He left a note saying he was going to kill people.

MSU '73: Only one note from over a week ago

[tuff bob]

Originally Posted by MSU '73

One story in the past THREE YEARS.

another tuff bob FAIL.

hint: click "sort by date"

[MSU '73]

Originally Posted by tuff bob

hint: click "sort by date"

Wow. It skyrockets to 3 in three years.

Actually, looks like they are getting the dental situation taken care of, bob.

I'll bet your are sorry that people are getting treated at reasonable costs.

[Krazykyle]

Originally Posted by MSU '73

Wow. It skyrockets to 3 in three years.

Actually, looks like they are getting the dental situation taken care of, bob.

I'll bet your are sorry that people are getting treated at reasonable costs.

Here ya go buddy, from the JAMA

http://jama.ama-assn.org/content/vol...joc30309t1.gif

Check out IM and Family practice, the two fields considered primary care in the USA. This has increased in the 6 years since this study was published as well since the resident hours limit was implemented.

You do not know what you are talking about.

[Krazykyle]

Originally Posted by AvgMSUJoe

There are a ton of jobs right here in the US that pay little or nothing compared with their schooling requirements. Maybe doctor becomes something like librarian and you do it for the love of the job not to be wealthy...

Is this a joke?

[tuff bob]

Originally Posted by Krazykyle

Is this a joke?

they think every job is a great job like their buddies the trial lawyers

[Krazykyle]

Originally Posted by tuff bob

they think every job is a great job like their buddies the trial lawyers

I mean really though, there are jobs that take more skill, knowledge, work ethic etc. Does this person really think a physician is akin to a librarian?

in fact I actually find it slightly offensive. Not because I don't believe a librarian is a valuable job, but because I believe those people willing to dedicate the time to become a skilled profession, create a successful business, or find success in any other avenue of life deserve some respect when they reach that stage.

[tuff bob]

Here are some highlights from the House Bill:

On Nov. 2, the Congressional Budget Office estimated what the plans will likely cost.

An individual earning $44,000 before taxes who purchases his own insurance will have to pay a $5,300 premium and an estimated $2,000 in out-of-pocket expenses, for a total of $7,300 a year, which is 17% of his pre-tax income. A family earning $102,100 a year before taxes will have to pay a $15,000 premium plus an estimated $5,300 out-of-pocket, for a $20,300 total, or 20% of its pre-tax income. Individuals and families earning less than these amounts will be eligible for

• Sec. 303 (pp. 167-168) makes it clear that, although the “qualified plan” is not yet designed, it will be of the “one size fits all” variety. The bill claims to offer choice—basic, enhanced and premium levels—but the benefits are the same. Only the co-pays and deductibles differ. You will have to enroll in the same plan, whether the government is paying for it or you and your employer are footing the bill.

• Sec. 59b (pp. 297-299) says that when you file your taxes, you must include proof that you are in a qualified plan. If not, you will be fined thousands of dollars. Illegal immigrants are exempt from this requirement.

• Sec. 412 (p. 272) says that employers must provide a “qualified plan” for their employees and pay 72.5% of the cost, and a smaller share of family coverage, or incur an 8% payroll tax. Small businesses, with payrolls from $500,000 to $750,000, are fined less.

[ninowesco]

no link no dice

[RQA]

Originally Posted by MSU '73

Translated:

Since my claims regarding the lack of growth in the 50's compared to the 60's was shown to be an ignorant lie by the factual information provided by MSU '73, I will try to hide behind some meaningless quotes by JFK.

Signed,

rqa

This is your spin of what I actually posted?

Originally Posted by RQA

I said:
The tax policies of the 50's which by implication you wish to re-impliment resulted in a stagnant economy and the election of JFK. He recognized the problem and promptly cut those high marginal rates.

Are you denying the significant recession of the later 1950s?

[Booyah]

Originally Posted by spartanMF

Here is an article about ObamaCare for ya.


Nancy Pelosi's New Health-Care Bill - WSJ.com

Post some original thoughts - don't just link and copy.