American Workers need to take a pay cut

[Redwingenator]

Originally Posted by MSULordyoda

That's from the Bible Since when?

[ricola]

Originally Posted by Madhatter536

I don't know what I am doing wrong, but I couldn't make the link work. The article is from the New York Times so if you want to read it in full try going to their website is all I can tell you. Sorry.

Heaph, you must really lead a rich and sheltered life if you think we need more tax cuts. You rich people have caused the entire financial mess this country is in and now you blame poor working people and expect them to keep bailing you out so you can continue to exploit real working Americans.

This country was built on manufacturing, NOT financial services. The financial market came into being to finance manufacturing and help it grow. Everyone prospered under that system. Now the financial fatcats have decided that only they need to prosper so they have systematically raped and killed the manufacturing base that built this country and borrowed the rest of us into debt to the manufacturers off shore. I for one am sick and tired of the conservaturds blaming working Americans for the crash when it was their GREED and nothing else that caused it. Then they ran screaming to the government they love to hate and GWB gave them tons and tons of cash because they were "too big and important" to fail. Conservaturds love private profit, but loss is public. And they have the gall to call it a "free market". Conservatism just makes me sick.

Hurray! you're right they suck. And as an American worker let me be the first to say "No" **** those greedy sob's. I'll take a 20 percent cut when all of the Ceos drop their pay to 300,000 a year.

[ricola]

Originally Posted by Redwingenator

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

So.....are you accusing Thomas Jefferson of plagiarism.

[Redwingenator]

Originally Posted by ConQueso™

Oooh...where in the Bible does it say there is a God given right to make money? Is it in the Gospels?

I used a quote from the Declaration of Independence as proof that this country is founded on the principle that a Creator (God) endowed men with rights that include life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

I have never once referred to the bible.

So.....are you accusing Thomas Jefferson of plagiarism.

Once again, I have not referred to the bible.

That's from the Bible Since when?

Once again, I have not referred to the bible.

I can tell that I'm going to have educate some of the liberals on here on the
Declaration of Independence.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness."

The important points of this quote in regards to this thread are liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Liberty is the right of a man to keep the fruits of his labor, his possessions, his land. When the government continues to take more and more of a man's possessions he loses more and more liberty and in turn the government becomes an obstacle in his pursuit of happiness.

[Madhatter536]

Originally Posted by Redwingenator

I used a quote from the Declaration of Independence as proof that this country is founded on the principle that a Creator (God) endowed men with rights that include life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

I have never once referred to the bible.



Once again, I have not referred to the bible.



Once again, I have not referred to the bible.

I can tell that I'm going to have educate some of the liberals on here on the
Declaration of Independence.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness."

The important points of this quote in regards to this thread are liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Liberty is the right of a man to keep the fruits of his labor, his possessions, his land. When the government continues to take more and more of a man's possessions he loses more and more liberty and in turn the government becomes an obstacle in his pursuit of happiness.

Actually the Creator, by which I think you take to mean God, endows no one with anything. The only rights a person is born with are those that are granted by the government of the nation in which they live. Jefferson's stirring prose is nice, but does not have the meaning you profess. Creator could just as easily mean the men who created the system of government as it does a God. It all depends on how you choose to interpret the words. You know, how some "Christians" believe the entire Bible is literal, and others see it as it truly is, a great guide but flawed in many ways.

Our form of government is not the evil you constantly proclaim it to be. Paying taxes is the price for living in a free country. And for your education, tax rates now are substantially lower than anytime in the last century. The low tax rates are the cause of the problem, not the solution to them. Sustaining a huge military budget is ridiculous in the current economic situation, but you have no problem with that. Instead you bitch about spending money keeping people healthy as unnecessary. You think that working Americans should be satisfied with lower wages so that the upward re-distribution of the nations wealth can continue unabated. You are just plain wrong, as are most conservatives. Thank heavens (pun intended) for liberals, or the United States would still be a British colony.

[Bullwrinkle]

Originally Posted by IGGcitable

The peons in Bangladesh and China work for 50 cents a day, the cowboy capitalists of Wall Street won't be happy until U.S. workers do too.

RACE TO THE BOTTOM.

And yes, the NY Times IS a conservative paper, like about 98 percent of all American papers -- owned by billionaires whose main motive is to butter their own bread.

What next Iggy - MSNBC is "conservative" too? When was the last time the NY Times endorsed anyone but a democrat for any high office?

and BTW - the nerve of the owners of that paper attempting to make a profit running it. How dare they? They should be sent off to the Gulag for reeducation at once!

[Madhatter536]

Originally Posted by Bullwrinkle

What next Iggy - MSNBC is "conservative" too? When was the last time the NY Times endorsed anyone but a democrat for any high office?

and BTW - the nerve of the owners of that paper attempting to make a profit running it. How dare they? They should be sent off to the Gulag for reeducation at once!

The issue isn't the business making a profit you moron. The issue is the quadrupling of the salary of the CEO while cutting the wages of the people doing the actual work. What don't you get about that? WORKING people are told to shoulder a cut, but bloodsucker CEOs get a raise? Conservatives are just so out to lunch it hurts.

[Bullwrinkle]

Originally Posted by Madhatter536

The issue isn't the business making a profit you moron. The issue is the quadrupling of the salary of the CEO while cutting the wages of the people doing the actual work. What don't you get about that? WORKING people are told to shoulder a cut, but bloodsucker CEOs get a raise? Conservatives are just so out to lunch it hurts.

First - if you call me names you'll get banned. Whoops wait a minute - that doesn't count for me apparently - so have at it.

Second - I think CEO pay is outrageous but for different reasons. They are given win-win packages by the the Board of Director's compensation committee (which by the way often has other CEOs on it). If the company does really well they get compensated hugely. If the company does poorly, the get compensated slightly less hugely.

If CEOs want to make the big bucks then they need to share in the same risk they put their shareholders and employees through. That means no salary, no bonus, no remarked stock options when the company does poorly.

That is only going to change when the big institutional investors, the pension fund managers and the mutual fund managers demand it. And it probably will only happen when they actually get seats on the board.

I don't agree with Warren Buffet on much, but he is 100% correct on the issue of executive compensation. Shocking that while he one of the most successful investors and CEOs ever, his advice on the subject is ignored by virtually every major Board of Directors.

That's what happens when the fox guards the henhouse.

[tehfoiler]

Your response ignores the fact that all those credit cards and mortgages were issued by the companies these high powered well paid CEO lead.

Does the pay of the CEO force people to use credit irresponsibly?

Heaph, you must really lead a rich and sheltered life if you think we need more tax cuts. You rich people have caused the entire financial mess this country is in and now you blame poor working people and expect them to keep bailing you out so you can continue to exploit real working Americans.

Pfft. When I look at the sheer amount of taxes I pay to every level of government, not to mention all the random fees and other hidden taxes, yea we need less taxes.

When will you people get it through your heads that the fact that wages have declined and manufacturing was outsourced was a direct result of the working American consumers demand of the lowest possible cost product.

If you want to blame people for low wages, blame yourselves. There is no incentive to increase wages when consumption has continually gone up. There is no incentive to raise wages when consumers are willing to go into massive debt to have an overinflated lifestyle.

You just want to blame it on someone else instead of realizing that the working American consumers made their own bed by support companies like Walmart.

[DantonIzzo]

Originally Posted by MSU '73

Hey, Mr. "shoot from the lip", riddle me this:

Why is CEO pay in the US around 300 times the average workers pay, while that average is around 40-80 times average worker pay in virtually every other industrialized nation?

Are you up to actually trying to make an intelligent, well thought out, reponse, or will we get more worthless "shoot from the lip" drivel.

Of course, no one has bothered to respond.

[Madhatter536]

Originally Posted by tehfoiler

Does the pay of the CEO force people to use credit irresponsibly?



Pfft. When I look at the sheer amount of taxes I pay to every level of government, not to mention all the random fees and other hidden taxes, yea we need less taxes.

When will you people get it through your heads that the fact that wages have declined and manufacturing was outsourced was a direct result of the working American consumers demand of the lowest possible cost product.

If you want to blame people for low wages, blame yourselves. There is no incentive to increase wages when consumption has continually gone up. There is no incentive to raise wages when consumers are willing to go into massive debt to have an overinflated lifestyle.

You just want to blame it on someone else instead of realizing that the working American consumers made their own bed by support companies like Walmart.

As I figured, you are definitely one of the overpaid, non-working corporate elitists. You are the one here who doesn't have a clue of what really builds and sustains an economy. The recession was caused by corporate GREED, and individual borrowing had absolutely nothing to do with it. You just don't want to accept that you and your type are solely responsible for the mess, but everyone with half a working brain, and that does not include you, knows better.

[tehfoiler]

As I figured, you are definitely one of the overpaid, non-working corporate elitists. You are the one here who doesn't have a clue of what really builds and sustains an economy. The recession was caused by corporate GREED, and individual borrowing had absolutely nothing to do with it. You just don't want to accept that you and your type are solely responsible for the mess, but everyone with half a working brain, and that does not include you, knows better.

So the massive negative personal savings rate that was around before the recession had nothing to do with it? The people lying on their mortgage applications had nothing to do with it? Corporate America doesn't force you to spend more then you earn. It doesn't force you to shop at Walmart and buy nothing but products from China.

The fact that it seems that most Americans don't give a damn what happens to their neighbors as long as they can get their lowest priced good from Walmart.

Typical blame the companies. You fail to realize that without consumers the companies can't sell anything.

[ConQueso™]

Originally Posted by Redwingenator

I used a quote from the Declaration of Independence as proof that this country is founded on the principle that a Creator (God) endowed men with rights that include life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

I have never once referred to the bible.

I can tell that I'm going to have educate some of the liberals on here on the
Declaration of Independence.

I fail to see what this:

Originally Posted by Rewingenator

A person has a God given right to make as much money they can through their own effort and ideas, and to keep the fruits of their labor

has to do with the Declaration of Independence.

[Cym Jim]

I'm grossly overpaid, but that's mostly because I get to choose my own salary on my grant proposals .

[Lomez]

Originally Posted by Cym Jim

I'm grossly overpaid, but that's mostly because I get to choose my own salary on my grant proposals .

you're not alone. most other welfare recipients feel the same way.

[MSULordyoda]

Originally Posted by tehfoiler

So the massive negative personal savings rate that was around before the recession had nothing to do with it? The people lying on their mortgage applications had nothing to do with it? Corporate America doesn't force you to spend more then you earn. It doesn't force you to shop at Walmart and buy nothing but products from China.

The fact that it seems that most Americans don't give a damn what happens to their neighbors as long as they can get their lowest priced good from Walmart.

Typical blame the companies. You fail to realize that without consumers the companies can't sell anything.

You're correct on everyone's desire to consume more and more.
However, what you don't see are the predatory people who prey on those less intelligent. Debt became cheap to get and companies were more than willing to hand out even to those who had no business deserving it.

You want to rail on those who took out too much of a mortgage. However, considering many mortgage companies never bothered to do due diligence themselves and actually require asset verification, it's just as much their stupidity as anyone. There is a whole lot more to the story than simply people buying too big of a house.

[Madhatter536]

Originally Posted by tehfoiler

So the massive negative personal savings rate that was around before the recession had nothing to do with it? The people lying on their mortgage applications had nothing to do with it? Corporate America doesn't force you to spend more then you earn. It doesn't force you to shop at Walmart and buy nothing but products from China.

The fact that it seems that most Americans don't give a damn what happens to their neighbors as long as they can get their lowest priced good from Walmart.

Typical blame the companies. You fail to realize that without consumers the companies can't sell anything.

You are wrong once again. Corporate America did force us all to buy nothing but China made products. That's because Corporate America moved all the manufacturing that used to be in America to China so they could pay slave wages and increase their bottom line, or more simply put, to satisfy their GREED. Your refusal to admit you are soooooo wrong about the causes behind the recession just show how weak minded you truly are. Keep on listening to Palin, Bachmann, Rush and Glenn. You know, the intellectual powerhouses of the conservative movement.

[tehfoiler]

However, what you don't see are the predatory people who prey on those less intelligent.

Then that is a problem of the state educational system. However those people don't deserve a free pass. The motto of this country might as well be "its not my fault" since that is the culture people are raising their children to be apart of.

You are wrong once again. Corporate America did force us all to buy nothing but China made products. That's because Corporate America moved all the manufacturing that used to be in America to China so they could pay slave wages and increase their bottom line, or more simply put, to satisfy their GREED.

There are plenty of companies that still make things in the USA. Is it everything? No. The difference is people could easily stop buying dumb non essential **** for a while to make a point about where it is manufactured. The fact is they don't.

People could support their local businesses and markets instead they shop at Walmart. How do you explain that away? Did all the small business move their shops and markets to China as well?

Face it, your opinion is that its always the big bad companies fault, when in all reality consumers and neighbors have no problem throwing each other under the bus when its the cheapest solution.

Keep on listening to Palin, Bachmann, Rush and Glenn. You know, the intellectual powerhouses of the conservative movement.

Why? I don't listen to any of them now.

[GRR Spartan]

How do all those high tax paying Canadians do it?

They all have Provencal health care, need significant downpayments on homes, don't have mortgage interest deductions and pay higher taxes yet their economy is creating jobs faster than they are losing them. (+31,000 in August) and are one of the first out of recession.

Meanwhile we have people crying because the government takes money from their checks. It pays for things like roads, military, education and programs to keep US citizens having some groceries.

[tehfoiler]

Meanwhile we have people crying because the government takes money from their checks. It pays for things like roads, military, education and programs to keep US citizens having some groceries.

When the government can spend the money responsibly then we'll talk about not crying about taxes.

I'd be more then happy to make taxes at the State level as soon as they reform the welfare system, abolish revenue sharing, and do something about the prison population.

[Gary in Bradenton]

Originally Posted by tTy

American Government needs to take a Pay/Revenue cut and hone in their own skills in frugatility.

Quoted for mother ****ing truth.

[hexydes]

What does it matter how much a company chooses to pay any of its employees, be they executives or entry-level employees. That's their call, and if they make the right decisions, they will do well, and if they make the wrong decisions, they will go under.

The problems arise when the federal government gets involved, and begins trying to attempt to artificially manipulate the market. Giving billions of dollars to banks and auto companies simply excuses companies from being held accountable for their bad decisions.

You're all missing the real problem here. It isn't corporations, it isn't the American worker, it's the government, who is screwing up our country's ability to make good decisions. Someone mentioned before how America doesn't "make stuff" anymore. Why do you think that is? With all of the social, environmental, and other rules in place, it's simply become too hard, and too expensive, to actually manufacture things in this country. So the solution is to move the manufacturing to other countries that will allow this to happen.

Just another example of the federal government manipulating the market. If you want to fix the majority of the problems in this country, slice the size and cost of the federal government down to the bone, end the federal reserve, and begin allowing the citizens of this country to start truly driving industry again.

[GRR Spartan]

Originally Posted by tehfoiler

When the government can spend the money responsibly then we'll talk about not crying about taxes.

I'd be more then happy to make taxes at the State level as soon as they reform the welfare system, abolish revenue sharing, and do something about the prison population.

You have to be a schtick. In MI it was John Engler who embarked on the biggest prison expansion in history. That's right, another fiscal conservative who was driving up state spending and adding state employees.

No government will ever spend responsibly in your book.

You just don't want to pay anything and get it all.

[Compound]

Originally Posted by GRR Spartan

You just don't want to pay anything and get it all.

He probably pays more in 1 year, then you pay in 10 years.

[tehfoiler]

You have to be a schtick. In MI it was John Engler who embarked on the biggest prison expansion in history. That's right, another fiscal conservative who was driving up state spending and adding state employees.

No government will ever spend responsibly in your book.

You just don't want to pay anything and get it all.

Just because someone who claimed to be a fiscal conservative does something counter to that it immediately results in other people who are actually for a small government look like shtick?

I didn't like Engler and I don't like Granholm.

I'm all for the decriminalization of marijuana in small amounts (I'd say perhaps an 8th of an ounce) and release nonviolent offenders that are in there on no tolerance drug convictions. It would save a lot of money.

My bigger issue has to do with revenue sharing. Completely cut it. Force local communities to live within their means. There is too much government sprawl in the smaller localities. Not everyone city needs its own school district or an outrageous police force (hint East Lansing and Dearborn).

I have no problems pay taxes for things like infrastructure, i.e. power, roads, water, communications, etc...