Who killed President Kennedy

[Spartanic]

Originally Posted by RQA

The truth is that it is virtually impossible to make the magic bullet NOT work. A bullet into JFKs back will hit Connally almost no matter how you position them. Your big problem is the bullet. Where did it go? If it passed through JFK, where did it go?

I positioned JFK & JBC in those graphics so it WOULD hit him (Using 3 possible seating scenarios that all showed the SBT would not work). Your big problems:
a bullet would not hit Connally if it never exited JFKs body.
a bullet would not hit Connally if it had an upward trajectory and continued along the Centerline of the Limo.

Each of the three graphics you presented show the bullet passing through JFK and into Connally. Hence the magic bullet theory is proven true not false.

Once again, any hit on JBC anywhere on his body validates the MBT?

The Magic Bullet has to go through all of Connally's known wounds. If you do not understand that, you are going to have pretty rough sledding trying to follow the rest of the discussion.

These organizations have a bit more credibility than Spartanic holding his protractor up to his computer screen!

You just made another bad assumption. I have a digital survey of Dealy Plaza, and I have Graphics programs and use Trig functions to calculate the angles. No protractor needed. You should have asked first before you made that silly statement.

My source IS the HSCA report. I believe you claim to have a copy. If memory serves me correct the info is on page 47 or 48 of their summary section regarding the shots.

Check your source. Pp. 47-48 on the HSCA report make no mention of specific angles. So, still waiting for you to verify your "11.5 degrees".

This idea of yours is laughable. You expect us to believe that this massive high-tech plot of yours involving the CIA, FBI and Dallas PD, among others, would duplicate Oswalds rifle, but would create one that had a bottom sling mount on the barrel but a side sling mount on the stock! But their attention to detail would perfectly recreate all of the identifying wear marks on that rifle. Nutty. And why again did they need a duplicate rifle?

Bottom line is I showed photographic proof of the existence of a forged duplicate MC Rifle. It is not my problem if the conspirators got careless.

How is it then that so many credible investigatory organizations have concluded that the bullet wounds point right back to the TSBD? But we are to believe you and your protractor over NOVA and Failure Analysis Associates?

These studies (like the WC before them) began with the assumption that LHO is the lone assassin and that the SBT is true. The credibility of these media productions is suspect.

Now, neither the HSCA, or FAA or Nova places the Back wound at z210. Apparently, you also question their conclusions and credibility.

[RQA]

Originally Posted by Spartanic

I positioned JFK & JBC in those graphics so it WOULD hit him (Using 3 possible seating scenarios that all showed the SBT would not work). Your big problems:

Originally Posted by Spartanic

a bullet would not hit Connally if it never exited JFKs body.

Conspiracy nut thinking at its finest. A conspiracy nut never has to deal with the evidence as it actually exists. If the evidence doesn’t fit your wacky idea just pretend it doesn’t exist or better yet that somebody made up the evidence or altered the evidence. And, no, it doesn’t bother the conspiracy nut that this leads to a conspiracy of hundreds if not thousands of players. Now, back to the actual evidence. A bullet was not found in JFKs body. Please explain, then, who took it out, when, and where if you ask us to believe this ridiculous theory.

a bullet would not hit Connally if it had an upward trajectory and continued along the Centerline of the Limo.

Back to the evidence. We know from the autopsy evidence that the bullet took a direct path from back to front without deflection. So your idea here is impossible unless you are expecting us to believe that someone shot JFK from the trunk of the limo.

Once again, any hit on JBC anywhere on his body validates the MBT?

Of course not. But each of the graphics you have displayed show it to be true. I have asked you for a graphic showing a bullet passing through the known (not a made-up) location of JFKs back and neck wounds that would somehow miss Connally. You have failed to provide it.

The Magic Bullet has to go through all of Connally's known wounds. If you do not understand that, you are going to have pretty rough sledding trying to follow the rest of the discussion.

Duh.

You just made another bad assumption. I have a digital survey of Dealy Plaza, and I have Graphics programs and use Trig functions to calculate the angles. No protractor needed. You should have asked first before you made that silly statement.

Wow! I am impressed. You have a computer and programs!! You must be right!!! Seriously Spart, you have made a very simple error which becomes a classic example of garbage in and garbage out. You have placed JFK too far inboard. Placing him properly in the limo and then placing Connally properly in the limo allows for all of the wounds to line up just as they happened. The WC figured this out. The HSCA figured this out. NOVA figured this out. PBS figured this out. The Discovery Channel figured this out. ABC figured this out. FAA figured this out. Have you considered the possibility that you are doing something wrong?

Check your source. Pp. 47-48 on the HSCA report make no mention of specific angles. So, still waiting for you to verify your "11.5 degrees".

Please, then, tell us what this reference says about the trajectory of the 2nd shot. I will give you a week or so before posting it myself. Sort of a check on your intellectual honesty.

Bottom line is I showed photographic proof of the existence of a forged duplicate MC Rifle. It is not my problem if the conspirators got careless.

No, what you showed was different photographs taken with different cameras, different lighting, different positions and then made the wild leap that this was proof of forged rifles. You offered as experts to support your opinion as White and Groden. Some powerful “bottom line”

These studies (like the WC before them) began with the assumption that LHO is the lone assassin and that the SBT is true. The credibility of these media productions is suspect.

Actually no. The HSCA, for example, started out with the notion there was a conspiracy and ended up stating there was a conspiracy. Yet, they do conclude the SBT is correct.

Now, neither the HSCA, or FAA or Nova places the Back wound at z210. Apparently, you also question their conclusions and credibility.

As I said when this topic started, I don’t believe it is possible to tell the exact z-frame at which the two men were hit. If the HSCA, FAA or NOVA conclude it was at a different z-frame I will defer to their expertise.

[Spartanic]

Originally Posted by RQA

... Seriously Spart, you have made a very simple error which becomes a classic example of garbage in and garbage out. You have placed JFK too far inboard. Placing him properly in the limo and then placing Connally properly in the limo allows for all of the wounds to line up just as they happened. The WC figured this out. The HSCA figured this out. NOVA figured this out. PBS figured this out. The Discovery Channel figured this out. ABC figured this out. FAA figured this out. Have you considered the possibility that you are doing something wrong?...

The Z film and the photos taken in Dealy Plaza combine to give us excellent evidence for JFKs position. If any thing, I placed JFK an inch or two closer to the side of the Limo than he really was.
Regarding all the studies and Commissions you listed above; why do none of them publish overhead shots showing the trajectory of the Magic Bullet?
Why have you yourself been unable to come up with a single graphic that shows a believable overhead trajectory for the Magic Bullet?
I know you have looked..., the fact that you have been unable to find a single believable graphic speaks for itself.
The graphics I furnished illustrate the obvious reason: There is no way you can align the trajectory from the Snipers Nest with the known wounds in the two men to make the Magic Bullet Theory work.
This is why all the fantasy weavers like Dale Meyers show graphics of JFK and JBC floating in space, with no Limo reference system, and primarily from a side view.

Please, then, tell us what this reference says about the trajectory of the 2nd shot. I will give you a week or so before posting it myself. Sort of a check on your intellectual honesty.

I am not going to type in pages 47 and 48, if that is what you are asking. I can tell you that the content of those pages is going to adversley affect your 11.5 degree angle contention.

Regarding the Duplicate Rifle Photo evidence: Different Sling Mounts; different type styles on the Serial numbers; the trigger guards; and different barrel markings...I think anybody who looks at those photos can judge for themselves.

Actually no. The HSCA, for example, started out with the notion there was a conspiracy and ended up stating there was a conspiracy. Yet, they do conclude the SBT is correct.

This is true. Gaeton Fonzi's book gives an excellent insiders description of how that all came about.

As I said when this topic started, I don’t believe it is possible to tell the exact z-frame at which the two men were hit. If the HSCA, FAA or NOVA conclude it was at a different z-frame I will defer to their expertise.

But remember, the challenge was to find a frame where the Magic Bullet theory could be backed up by the Zapruder film evidence.

In Mark Fuhrman's book, "A Simple Act of Murder", He spends a good portion of the book examining the Single Bullet Theory. Below is a quote showing his conclusion:

"...ITEK Corporation, a company specializing in photographic reproduction and enhancement, performed a stereophotogrammetric analysis, basically rendering the Zapruder film into 3D. Itek found that Connally was sitting 10.2 to 20.3 centimeters to the left of a line extending forward from Kennedy. Even with Connally placed at the most extreme left position possible, the bullet would have hit him in the left shoulder and continued moving right to left, through his body, well away from any of his actual wounds.
No matter where you place Kennedy and Connally, it just doesn't work.
The horizontal trajectory evidence is the most powerful argument against the single bullet theory. Everything else - the relatively undamaged nature of the bullet, the vertical trajectory, the timing of the shot- might be problematic, even highly improbable, but all are possible. The horizontal trajectory is not possible under any conditions."
(end of Fuhrman quote, page 177, A Simple Act of Murder)

Even though Fuhrman actually believes LHO acted alone, he examined the Magic Bullet Theory and exposed it as being impossible. ( interesting that Fuhrman and Itek came up with identical results as my graphic reconstruction done years before his book was published.)
Although I disagree with his conclusion regarding a single shooter, I will give him credit for being honest enough to test the Magic Bullet theory and discard it when he saw proof it could not have happened.

If you have not seen the book, there are pages and pages of graphics, photos and discussion on this single topic. The Magic Bullet theory never was supported by evidence. Several Commission members voiced objections to it. It was "adopted" by the majority because it was seen as the only explanation if LHO was the lone shooter.

"

[RQA]

Originally Posted by Spartanic

The Z film and the photos taken in Dealy Plaza combine to give us excellent evidence for JFKs position.

Yes they do

If any thing, I placed JFK an inch or two closer to the side of the Limo than he really was.

Unfortunately you don't understand the difference between the width of one's shoulders and the width of one's chest

Regarding all the studies and Commissions you listed above; why do none of them publish overhead shots showing the trajectory of the Magic Bullet?

You are living in a one-dimensional world, my friend. Not only are you insisting on posting overhead views, you are posting inaccurate overhead views. The way to solve this problem is to simply have some stand-ins sit in the limo, and see how it works out. Wonder if anybody ever did that?

Why have you yourself been unable to come up with a single graphic that shows a believable overhead trajectory for the Magic Bullet?
I know you have looked..., the fact that you have been unable to find a single believable graphic speaks for itself.

Hello!!! I did that already.

The graphics I furnished illustrate the obvious reason: There is no way you can align the trajectory from the Snipers Nest with the known wounds in the two men to make the Magic Bullet Theory work.

This is why all the fantasy weavers like Dale Meyers show graphics of JFK and JBC floating in space, with no Limo reference system, and primarily from a side view.

I guess if you want to keep insisting the sky is green, there really is no hope for you. But for those (if any) reading along, the single bullet theory has been repetatively shown to be correct by the Warren Commission, the HSCA, ABC, Discovery Channel, FAA, NOVA, PBS and others. Spart offers up his graphics program, White and Groden. BTW, is OJ going to use Groden as an expert witness again in his upcoming trial? It would be a fascinating sidebar to review his testimony at OJs civil trial regarding photos of his shoes

I am not going to type in pages 47 and 48, if that is what you are asking.

Of course you aren't. It outlines the facts of the trajectory that even the HSCA could not overlook and proves the sbt to be correct.

I can tell you that the content of those pages is going to adversley affect your 11.5 degree angle contention.

How will we know this if you refuse to quote it?

Regarding the Duplicate Rifle Photo evidence: Different Sling Mounts; different type styles on the Serial numbers; the trigger guards; and different barrel markings...I think anybody who looks at those photos can judge for themselves.

Anyone who knows anything about photos knows that different cameras, different film, different lighting produces different pictures, hardly evidence of forgery. You do realize that by your standard there has to be 3 rifles, don't you? How idiotic is that

This is true. Gaeton Fonzi's book gives an excellent insiders description of how that all came about.

But remember, the challenge was to find a frame where the Magic Bullet theory could be backed up by the Zapruder film evidence.

In Mark Fuhrman's book, "A Simple Act of Murder", He spends a good portion of the book examining the Single Bullet Theory. Below is a quote showing his conclusion:

"...ITEK Corporation, a company specializing in photographic reproduction and enhancement, performed a stereophotogrammetric analysis, basically rendering the Zapruder film into 3D. Itek found that Connally was sitting 10.2 to 20.3 centimeters to the left of a line extending forward from Kennedy. Even with Connally placed at the most extreme left position possible, the bullet would have hit him in the left shoulder and continued moving right to left, through his body, well away from any of his actual wounds.
No matter where you place Kennedy and Connally, it just doesn't work.

Actually place Kennedy and Connally in their proper locations makes it work just fine. Of course a conspiracy nut who doesn't know the difference between ones' chest and one's shoulders wouldn't realize that.

The horizontal trajectory evidence is the most powerful argument against the single bullet theory. Everything else - the relatively undamaged nature of the bullet, the vertical trajectory, the timing of the shot- might be problematic, even highly improbable, but all are possible. The horizontal trajectory is not possible under any conditions."
(end of Fuhrman quote, page 177, A Simple Act of Murder)

Even though Fuhrman actually believes LHO acted alone, he examined the Magic Bullet Theory and exposed it as being impossible. ( interesting that Fuhrman and Itek came up with identical results as my graphic reconstruction done years before his book was published.)
Although I disagree with his conclusion regarding a single shooter, I will give him credit for being honest enough to test the Magic Bullet theory and discard it when he saw proof it could not have happened.

If you have not seen the book, there are pages and pages of graphics, photos and discussion on this single topic. The Magic Bullet theory never was supported by evidence. Several Commission members voiced objections to it. It was "adopted" by the majority because it was seen as the only explanation if LHO was the lone shooter.

"

Fuhrman looks at all the evidence and comes to the obvious conclusion that LHO was the murderer. I don't have a problem with that. Even the Warren Commission said that the single bullet theory was not a mandatory part of their overall conclusion.

Spart, maybe you should trying looking at the big picture. Try and fit all the evidence together. I have never in all my years of debating CNs find one that could piece together a logical story from beginning to end using the evidence that exists.

[Lochgelly]

Spart, maybe you should trying looking at the big picture. Try and fit all the evidence together. I have never in all my years of debating CNs find one that could piece together a logical story from beginning to end using the evidence that exists.

You can't....and you know it...but that doesn't mean there was no conspiracy.

The evidence has been blocked, supressed, people have gotten older and died, the trail has gotten so stale that I don't think there will ever be a consensus. In my opinion all you can do is look at all the "squirrly" crap surrrounding Oswald, look at the Zapruder film/obvious shot from the right front, and listen to Oswald himself when he admits he is "just a patsy" and you can come to the conclusion that...yes...there was a conspiracy....but as to exactly what that conspiracy was....the world will never know.

The Warren Commission defenders have won...congratulations....as a symbolic gesture to all of the suppressers ...umm...I mean defenders of the truth regarding the Warren Commission whitewash...errrr. i mean Report .....you should be given the Congressional Medal of Honor.

[Leonidas]

Originally Posted by RQA

Spart, maybe you should trying looking at the big picture. Try and fit all the evidence together. I have never in all my years of debating CNs find one that could piece together a logical story from beginning to end using the evidence that exists.

Are you trying to say the WC and the lone nut evidence is logical and fits together perfectly with NO holes or contridictory evidence?

[Spartanic]

Originally Posted by RQA

...
Actually place Kennedy and Connally in their proper locations makes it work just fine. ..

You have been unable to come up with a grapic that shows this. No one else has been able to either. Every graphic that has been posted in this thread shows why the Magic Bullet could not have happened.

There never was any evidence for it and there still is not. Ask Arlen Specter. He came up with the Magic Bullet Theory in desparation when he realized that all the Injuries to JFK and Connally, and the damage to the Limo had to be caused by 2 bullets if LHO was to be blamed as the sole assassin. He has basically admitted as much. LBJ did not believe in it. Two of the WC members openly criticised it. Another expressed doubt in it. Both JBC and Nellie testified that the first bullet that hit JFK did not hit JBC. The physical evidence that should have accompanied this preposterous theory is completely absent.

Fuhrman looks at all the evidence and comes to the obvious conclusion that LHO was the murderer. I don't have a problem with that. ...

Have you read his book? To say Fuhrman looks at all the evidence is completely wrong. He actually states in the book that he feels it is unnecessary to look at all the evidence.
Just like the WC, Fuhrman started out with the assumption that Oswald did it. He never considers any evidence that does not fit his select set of assumptions.
Even worse, He still uses the NAA evidence, which was invalidated and shown to be worthless before his book was published. He differs from the WC only in his take on the Magic Bullet Theory.

Spart, maybe you should trying looking at the big picture. Try and fit all the evidence together. I have never in all my years of debating CNs find one that could piece together a logical story from beginning to end using the evidence that exists.

I agree looking at the Big Picture is essential. I would say most of the People who believe the Lone Nut Theory fail to look at the Big Picture. The WC is the perfect example of looking at only a selected portion of "the picture".

It is not necessary to know every detail to know that there was a conspiracy. Even so, I believe over 90% of the story has been revealed by the mass of researchers working with the available evidence. To say that you cannot piece together a logical story is simply saying that you disagree with the story that has emerged.

[RQA]

Originally Posted by Lochgelly

You can't....and you know it...but that doesn't mean there was no conspiracy.

I can, and countless others have put together a complete story of the assassination using the evidence at hand. CNs can't. Why? Because they (you) do not have the evidence to do so. That means there is no conspiracy. Especially since one can prove without doubt that LHO did it by himself, hence no conspiracy

The evidence has been blocked,

Care to offer some backup for this wild claim?

In my opinion all you can do is look at all the "squirrly" crap surrrounding Oswald,

What crap are you referring to? His fingerprints on the murder weapon? His murder of Tippit? His attempted murder of Walker?

look at the Zapruder film/obvious shot from the right front,

It always gets back to this doesn't it? There is nothing that makes somebody look more ignorant then when they make this claim. You do realize that basic physics proves you wrong?

and listen to Oswald himself when he admits he is "just a patsy" and you can come to the conclusion that...yes...there was a conspiracy....but as to exactly what that conspiracy was....the world will never know.

Oswald was caught in multiple lies after the assassination. Why would a patsy lie? Why would a patsy know he is a patsy? Why wouldn't a patsy tell everything he knew about his setup?

The Warren Commission defenders have won...congratulations....as a symbolic gesture to all of the suppressers ...umm...I mean defenders of the truth regarding the Warren Commission whitewash...errrr. i mean Report .....you should be given the Congressional Medal of Honor.

You conspiracy nuts offer nothing but ignorant rehashing of long disproven ideas (Z film shows a shot from the front?) You should be embarrassed both by your lack of knowledge of the facts of the case and your willingness to believe anything a fellow cn says without question. Sad.

[EComCon]

Originally Posted by Lochgelly

..the world will never know.

Happy 43rd Anniversary of the Warren Commission Report

Jack Ruby about the conspiracy to kill JFK

"The world will never know the true facts.." -- Jack Ruby; 1963

"Yes, there will come a time, but it might not be in your life time. I am not referring to anything especially, but there may be some things that would involve national security."
-- Chief Justice Earl Warren [The New York Times]; February 5, 1964

"There were many rooms in the mansion. I was not privy to who struck John."
-- James Jesus Angleton (CIA); 1976

[RQA]

Originally Posted by Leonidas

Are you trying to say the WC and the lone nut evidence is logical and fits together perfectly with NO holes or contridictory evidence?

Pretty much, yes.

It certainly is logical

1. Murder suspect in the right place and time to do the crime
2. Murder suspect flees the scene of the crime and commits another murder in an attempt to avoid arrest
3.Murder suspect proven to own the murder weapon
4. Bullets from the crime link directly back to the murder weapon
5.Murder suspects prints on the murder weapon
6. Murder supect caught in multiple lies after his capture
7. ZERO evidence of shot from anywhere else but where the murder suspect was
shall I go on?

NO holes? Well the thing is what 12 volumes long? There probably are some holes and contradictory evidence. But they are minor and do not change the outcome.

However, the holes on the ship "Conspiracy Nut" are like those in the Titanic and with the same result

[EComCon]

Gerald Ford's Role in the JFK Assassination Cover-Up by Don Fulsom

Happy 43rd Anniversary:Members of the Warren Commission present their report on the assassination of President John F. Kennedy.
L-R: John McCloy, J. Lee Rankin (General Counsel), Senator Richard Russell, Representative Gerald Ford, Chief Justice Earl Warren, President Lyndon B. Johnson, Allen Dulles, Senator John Sherman Cooper, and Representative Hale Boggs. Credit: LBJ Library photo by Cecil Stoughton

Gov. Connally's insistence that he was struck by a separate bullet than the one that killed President Kennedy clearly contradicts the Warren Commission's lone-killer conclusion that a single bullet – fired by an old Italian-made mail-order rifle – hit both men.

The 6.5 mm Mannlicher-Carcano rifle was found on the sixth floor of the Depository and was originally identified as a 7.65 mm German Mauser. The Italian weapon, then nearly 20 years old, had a terrible reputation. The October 1964 issue of Mechanix Illustrated described the rifle as "crudely made, poorly designed, dangerous and inaccurate."

The commission said the first shot struck the President in the base of his neck and exited from his throat. This very same bullet then proceeded to hit Connally in the back, shattering his fifth rib. The bullet then emerged from the governor's chest, passed through his right wrist – breaking several bones – and finally came to rest in the his left thigh. This is known as the single or "magic" bullet— magic because it inflicted so many wounds, broke so many bones, yet still wound up – in nearly perfect condition – on a stretcher at Parkland Memorial Hospital.

The Warren Commission uncovered "no credible evidence that any shots were fired from the Triple Underpass (near the grassy knoll), ahead of the motorcade, or from any other location."

This determination was intended to support the scenario that Oswald could have fired the purported number of shots within an allotted timeframe – and that one of the bullets fired that fateful day hit both the president and the governor.

Despite this public assertion, JFK assassination expert Anthony Summers emphasizes most of the commission's seven members had private doubts about the theory: "John McCloy had difficulty accepting it. Congressman Hale Boggs had ‘strong doubts.' Senator John Sherman Cooper was, he told me (Summers) in 1978, ‘unconvinced.' . . . On a recently released tape, held at the Lyndon B. Johnson Library, (Sen. Richard) Russell is heard telling President Johnson, ‘I don't believe it.' And Johnson responds, ‘I don't either.'"

In fact, many of the Warren Commission's conclusions do not agree with the evidence it collected. As Facts on File points out: "Of the 266 known witnesses to the assassination, the commission questioned 126. Of these, 51 thought the shots came from the direction of the grassy knoll, 32 said that they came from the Texas School Book Depository. Thirty-eight did not offer an opinion, but most of these witnesses were not asked. The remaining five thought the shots came from more than one location."

Those who thought shots came from the grassy knoll seem to be supported by NBC cameraman Dave Weigman's herky-jerky 16mm film of the assassination scene. With his camera rolling, Weigman jumped out of the seventh car in the JFK motorcade and ran up to the knoll. Experts who made a frame-by-frame examination of Weigman's film say it clearly shows puffs of smoke coming from bushes at the top of the knoll.

Dallas County deputy constable Seymour Weitzman also ran toward the top of the grassy knoll – where he found a man carrying Secret Service identification. Weitzman later identified this man as Bernard Barker, a CIA asset and the future Watergate burglar who would lead the four-man contingent of Cuban–born Watergate burglars from the Miami area. Barker was an expert at surreptitious entries, planting bugs and photographing documents. He was a close associate of Florida Mafia godfather Santos Trafficante, and of Mob-connected Key Biscayne banker Bebe Rebozo – Richard Nixon's bosom buddy.

Barker was a veteran CIA asset. Along with JFK assassination suspects Howard Hunt, Frank Sturgis and David Ferrie, he had helped plan the unsuccessful 1961 CIA-sponsored invasion of Cuba, a mission fathered by Vice President Richard Nixon. The actual invasion was finally carried out at the Bay of Pigs under President Kennedy. The CIA recruited the Mafia to kill Cuban President Fidel Castro at about the same time the exile invaders waded ashore.

Barker's day job was a real estate agent on Key Biscayne. And he was a close friend and neighbor of fellow CIA asset Eugenio Martinez – the Watergate lock-picker. Martinez's real estate firm had extensive dealings with Bebe Rebozo, and had brokered Nixon's purchase of a house on Biscayne Bay.

In the immediate aftermath of the Watergate arrests, President Nixon was anxious about his pal Rebozo's vulnerabilities. On White House tapes released many years later, after hearing that Howard Hunt's name turned up in two of the burglars' address books, Nixon had a question for his chief of staff, Bob Haldeman: "Is Rebozo's name in anyone's address book?" Haldeman answers, "No … he (Rebozo) told me he doesn't know any of these guys." Sounding rather dumbfounded, the president responds: "He doesn't know them?"

If Weitzman was correct in fingering Barker, the CIA man would have had no trouble obtaining Secret Service credentials. CIA operatives have a way of coming up with badges and other items to suit their various goals (As a Nixon White House spy, Howard Hunt once wore a speech alteration device and a red wig to a secret encounter.)

Barker wasn't the only future Watergate conspirator to reportedly show up in Dallas on Nov. 22, 1963. Under oath, CIA operative Morita Lorenz placed CIA agents Hunt and Frank Sturgis at the assassination scene.

This claim was bolstered by two other local law enforcement officers who reported encountering men on the grassy knoll who identified themselves as Secret Service agents – yet the Secret Service maintained that none of its agents were in Dealey Plaza right after the shooting..

In 1998, a review board appointed by President Bill Clinton found nothing in secret JFK assassination records to bolster the single-bullet theory. In fact, as the Assassination Records Review Board went out of business, it complained that records of the post-mortem examination of President Kennedy's body were incomplete. Such records could have cleared up mysteries about Kennedy's head wound, or wounds, and helped determine whether he was shot from the front.

In its final report, the review board said: "There have been shortcomings that have led many to question not only the completeness of the autopsy records of President Kennedy, but the lack of a prompt and complete analysis of the records by the Warren Commission."

While it collected and released thousands of previously secret government documents, the board also expressed worry that "critical records may have been withheld" from its scrutiny. It stressed that it was not able to secure "all that was out there."

In 2005, appearing at a scholarly symposium, assassination expert Dr. Jack Gordon went over doctors' statements from the hospital in Dallas where Kennedy was taken after the shooting. Gordon produced quotes from nine doctors who gave the same description of a huge softball size hole in occipital-parietal region of Kennedy's skull, and one nurse who said, "in layman's terms, 'One large hole, back of his head.'" This contradicts the official story that the back of the head was completely intact.

With all of these contradictions emerging – both during the Warren Commission hearings and in the aftermath of its final report – one has to wonder how the Warren Commission managed to arrive at the conclusions it did.

A key edit in the Warren Report may have helped. The report's first draft said: "A bullet had entered his [President Kennedy's] back at a point slightly below the shoulder to the right of the spine." Had that stood, the trajectory would have made it impossible for the bullet that struck Kennedy to come out his neck, and then somehow critically wound Connally.

Newly released documents show, however, that Warren Commission member Congressman Gerald Ford pressed the panel to change its description of the wound and place it higher in Kennedy's body. Ford wanted the wording changed to: "A bullet had entered the back of his neck slightly to the right of the spine." The panel's final version was: "A bullet had entered the base of the back of his neck slightly to the right of the spine."

This crucial change only came to light in 1997, when the Assassination Record Review Board released handwritten notes made by Ford that had been kept by J. Lee Rankin, the Warren Commission's chief counsel. Ford's change is even at odds with his own declaration in the Oct. 2, 1964 issue of Life: "I personally believe that one of these three shots missed entirely – but which of the three may never be known. I believe that another bullet struck the president in the back and emerged from his throat (and went on to strike Connally.)"

When the alteration was brought to Ford's attention in 1997, he said it "had nothing to do with (thwarting) a conspiracy theory" and was made "only in an attempt to be more precise." Assassination researcher Robert Morningstar, however, called the change "the most significant lie in the whole Warren Commission report." He pointed out that if the bullet had hit Kennedy in the back, it could not have gone on to strike Connally the way the commission said it did. Morningstar contended that the effect of Ford's editing suggested that a bullet hit the president in the neck – "raising the wound two or three inches. Without that alteration, they could never have hoodwinked the public as to the true number of assassins."

Ford's alteration supports the single-bullet theory by making a specific point that the bullet entered Kennedy's body ''at the back of his neck'' rather than in his uppermost back, as the commission staff originally wrote.

Harold Weisberg, a longtime critic of the Warren Commission's work, said: "What Ford is doing is trying to make the single bullet theory more tenable."

Former Texas First Lady Nellie Connally – who died in 2006 at the age of 87 – rediscovered her assassination diary in 1993. When Newsweek published it in 1998, the magazine said the diary "reaffirms the Connallys' verdict that the Warren Commission was wrong in concluding that a single bullet passed through JFK's neck and Connally's chest." Noting the commission's finding that one bullet missed the car, the magazine added: "Some conspiracy theorists argue that if three (Author's note: the commission said only two bullets hit the two men) bullets hit their targets, and an additional bullet missed, then there must have been a second gunman: nobody could have fired so many rounds so quickly."

After a two year probe costing taxpayers $5.5 million, House investigators concluded in 1978 that President Kennedy's murder was "probably . . . the result of a conspiracy," and that there was a strong possibility of a shot from the grassy knoll, meaning that two gunmen must have fired at the president within split seconds of each other. In 2001, a peer-reviewed article in Science and Justice determined there was a 96.3 percent chance a shot was fired from the grassy knoll to the right of the president's limousine.

The author of the new analysis, JFK assassination researcher D. B. Thomas, believes this was the shot that killed the president.

G. Robert Blakey, former chief counsel of the House investigation, called the new study "an honest, careful scientific examination of everything we did, with all the appropriate statistical checks." And he said it "increased the degree of confidence that the shot from the grassy knoll was real, not static (contained on a police dicta-belt of the sounds in Dealey Plaza that day.)"

In the 1990s, the Assassination Records Review Board released a strong clue that more than three shots were fired at President Kennedy.

The cover of an empty FBI evidence envelope – dated Dec. 2nd 1963 – noted that it had once held a 7.65 mm rifle shell that was found in Dealey Plaza after the shooting. The discovery of a fourth bullet shell, therefore, supports the acoustical evidence cited by the House committee, as well as all of the eyewitness reports of a shot from the grassy knoll.

President Richard Nixon – later described the "Oswald did it by himself scenario" as "the greatest hoax that has ever been perpetuated." Nixon's assertion – contained in a tape of an Oval Office conversation with aide Bob Haldeman – was not made public until 2002.

Diary Entry - Ford

[RQA]

Originally Posted by Spartanic

You have been unable to come up with a grapic that shows this. No one else has been able to either. Every graphic that has been posted in this thread shows why the Magic Bullet could not have happened.

Oh I have the graphic. Just letting out enough rope for you to hang yourself. As you know there are multiple graphics that prove this and with much more power than the cheap 2-D schematics you insist on using to misrepresent the SBT. However, as you insist on one as seen from above, I will post it once you are done ranting. And you will be embarrassed once again. Just as when you misrepresented the secret service testimony a few pages ago. (No, I haven't forgotten that one)

There never was any evidence for it and there still is not. Ask Arlen Specter. He came up with the Magic Bullet Theory in desparation when he realized that all the Injuries to JFK and Connally, and the damage to the Limo had to be caused by 2 bullets if LHO was to be blamed as the sole assassin. He has basically admitted as much.

You CNs are pretty much all the same. Wild statements unsupported by the evidence
1. The SBT is well supported by the evidence especially since every other possibility is virtually impossible. For example, a question I have asked several times and remains unanswered is: if the bullet that hit JFK did not hit Connally where did it go? This is truely a magic disappearing bullet!

2. Please quote Spectoer as saying he came up with this theory in "desperation".

LBJ did not believe in it.

So?

Two of the WC members openly criticised it.

Names and quotes please

Another expressed doubt in it.

Name and quote please.

Both JBC and Nellie testified that the first bullet that hit JFK did not hit JBC.

How could they possilby know that? Irrelevant in any case.

The physical evidence that should have accompanied this preposterous theory is completely absent.

Again, you are just making stuff up. We know all the shots came from behind. We know that a line from JFKs back through his neck wound lines up exactly with Connallys back wound.
If you don't believe this then please explain the nature of Connallys back wound.

Have you read his book?

no

To say Fuhrman looks at all the evidence is completely wrong. He actually states in the book that he feels it is unnecessary to look at all the evidence.

my mistake, I was basing my comment on what you said about his book. I should have known not to do that.

Just like the WC, Fuhrman started out with the assumption that Oswald did it. He never considers any evidence that does not fit his select set of assumptions.
Even worse, He still uses the NAA evidence, which was invalidated and shown to be worthless before his book was published. He differs from the WC only in his take on the Magic Bullet Theory.

Again, (this is getting tiring having to explain things to you over and over again) the NAA evidence is not needed to prove LHO guilty, nor does it's potential invalidation change the case against LHO.

I agree looking at the Big Picture is essential. I would say most of the People who believe the Lone Nut Theory fail to look at the Big Picture. The WC is the perfect example of looking at only a selected portion of "the picture".

The reality is just the opposite. The LN side puts together a complete factual story. The CN only nit-picks at inconsistencies, and NEVER puts together a complete story. A great example is your insistence of the forged rifles. A "big picture" question is one I have have asked you several times and which you never answer. Why the need?

It is not necessary to know every detail to know that there was a conspiracy. Even so, I believe over 90% of the story has been revealed by the mass of researchers working with the available evidence. To say that you cannot piece together a logical story is simply saying that you disagree with the story that has emerged.

Please tell me that story!! I have never heard it. BTW, saying "the CIA did it" is not a complete story.

[RQA]

Originally Posted by EComCon

Happy 43rd Anniversary of the Warren Commission Report

Jack Ruby about the conspiracy to kill JFK

"The world will never know the true facts.." -- Jack Ruby; 1963

"Yes, there will come a time, but it might not be in your life time. I am not referring to anything especially, but there may be some things that would involve national security."
-- Chief Justice Earl Warren [The New York Times]; February 5, 1964

"There were many rooms in the mansion. I was not privy to who struck John."
-- James Jesus Angleton (CIA); 1976

Hi MinM!

[EComCon]

Originally Posted by RQA

Hi MinM!

Hi RQA

Evidence of Revision (1 of 5) : The Assassinations of Kennedy and Oswald

[Spartanic]

Originally Posted by RQA

Oh I have the graphic. Just letting out enough rope for you to hang yourself. As you know there are multiple graphics that prove this and with much more power than the cheap 2-D schematics you insist on using to misrepresent the SBT. However, as you insist on one as seen from above, I will post it....

Originally Posted by RQA

......We know all the shots came from behind. We know that a line from JFKs back through his neck wound lines up exactly with Connallys back wound.
...

Where is the graphic?

Originally Posted by RQA

...the NAA evidence is not needed to prove LHO guilty, nor does it's potential invalidation change the case against LHO....

What is the actual evidence against LHO at this point?

There really is nothing credible left to make a case against Oswald (other than 40+ years of various Media outlets claiming Oswald did it).

No bullet evidence. No Magic bullet. No Rifle evidence. No motive. No reliable witnesses.

Oswald worked at the TSBD.
He was at work the day of the assassination.

Not much of a case.

[RQA]

Originally Posted by RQA

Please, then, tell us what this reference (meaning the HSCA, which Spart is trying to use to argue against the SBT)says about the trajectory of the 2nd shot. I will give you a week or so before posting it myself. Sort of a check on your intellectual honesty.

Well, over a week as passed, and we hear nothing from Spartanic about what the actual report from the HSCA says about the single bullet theory. He claims to have a copy, but cannot spare the time to actually post any actual information from it. No surprise there.

So for those reading along, here is what the HSCA actually said about the single bullet theory.

Originally Posted by HSCA

The panel found that the alinement of the President and the Governor during this period was consistent with the single bullet hypothesis

What those reading along should learn from this, is that conspiracy nuts build their case on lies, deceptions, and distortions. Often the truth is in what they choose to leave out. Well illustrated here as well in in Sparts famous use of the "..."

[Spartanic]

Originally Posted by RQA

Well, over a week as passed, and we hear nothing from Spartanic about what the actual report from the HSCA says about the single bullet theory. He claims to have a copy, but cannot spare the time to actually post any actual information from it. No surprise there.

So for those reading along, here is what the HSCA actually said about the single bullet theory.



What those reading along should learn from this, is that conspiracy nuts build their case on lies, deceptions, and distortions. Often the truth is in what they choose to leave out. Well illustrated here as well in in Sparts famous use of the "..."

Where is your graphic?
You said you would post your graphic. It has been several weeks. You have not. We all know the reason: You don't have one.

The WC, the HSCA, and several authors have all advocated the Magic Bullet theory. Yet no one can present an accurate graphical representation of how it could have happened.
The reason is quite simple: JFK and Connally are never aligned correctly for the SBT to work.

The SBT is just one of several fairy tales concocted by the WC to frame LHO as the Lone Assassin. When you remove all the lies, deceptions, and distortions, it is obvious Oswald was setup as a patsy.

The WC and the HSCA were both at the mercy of the FBI and the CIA regarding what evidence would be presented, who was in charge of that evidence, and restrictions on who could give testimony.

The WC was charged with the mission of proving LHO was the Lone assassin. That is all the WC ever attempted to do.

The HSCA was given X amount of funding. When those funds prematurely ran out, the investigation came to a screeching halt, and a "compromise" conclusion was hastily thrown together.

Gaeton Fonzi, (one of the lead investigators of the HSCA) gives an excellent inside account of how the HSCA investigation was manipulated in "The Last Investigation".

[RQA]

Originally Posted by Spartanic

Where is your graphic?
You said you would post your graphic. It has been several weeks. You have not. We all know the reason: You don't have one.

Oh, I have it. Like I said, I just wanted to give you a little more rope to hang yourself with!

The WC, the HSCA, and several authors have all advocated the Magic Bullet theory. Yet no one can present an accurate graphical representation of how it could have happened.
The reason is quite simple: JFK and Connally are never aligned correctly for the SBT to work.

So are you saying the HSCA was part of the conspiracy or just incompetent?
There are many representations available that accurately reflect the postion of the two men. Most are computer recreations that prove without a doubt that the SBT is possible. The fact that you continue to deny this carries about as much weight as Chachi saying that airplanes didn't hit the WTC.

The SBT is just one of several fairy tales concocted by the WC to frame LHO as the Lone Assassin. When you remove all the lies, deceptions, and distortions, it is obvious Oswald was setup as a patsy.

So your conspiracy was designed to peg Oswald as a rear-shooting patsy by using shooters from many different spots. Oh yeah, that makes sense!

The WC and the HSCA were both at the mercy of the FBI and the CIA regarding what evidence would be presented, who was in charge of that evidence, and restrictions on who could give testimony.

Again, this is simply not true. These commissions were not "at the mercy" of the FBI/CIA for evidence. That is an outright lie. I will add this to the list of lies, distortions and omissions that I have caught you in.

The WC was charged with the mission of proving LHO was the Lone assassin. That is all the WC ever attempted to do.

A great distortion.
So then what was the charge of the HSCA? They also concluded that LHO was the assassin. More conspiracy nut logic.

The HSCA was given X amount of funding. When those funds prematurely ran out, the investigation came to a screeching halt, and a "compromise" conclusion was hastily thrown together.

Gaeton Fonzi, (one of the lead investigators of the HSCA) gives an excellent inside account of how the HSCA investigation was manipulated in "The Last Investigation".

The only "compromise" was adding in bogus accustical evidedence. And even that couldn't overturn the vast evidence of LHO as the killer. Take away that bogus evidence and once again we have LHO as the only killer.


Oh and the graphic?

Maybe this afternoon or tonight

[Leonidas]

Originally Posted by RQA

Oh and the graphic?

Maybe this afternoon or tonight

Of course "no comment" on Gaeton Fonzi

[RQA]

Originally Posted by Spartanic

Where is your graphic?
You said you would post your graphic. It has been several weeks. You have not. We all know the reason: You don't have one.

The fact that you believe such a graphic does not exist points to the limited knowledge you apparently have of the actual facts of the case. Anyone who studies this case with an open mind would know such a graphic exists. Apparently you only read the conspiracy nut literature.

[RQA]

Originally Posted by Spartanic

Using these diagrams for this purpose is more deception because it assumes that the shoulder width is the same as the chest width and that the upper torso rotates inline with the lower torso.

Of course each is wrong assumption.

My graphic will accurately account for these issues and show that the SBT is indeed possible.

[RQA]

Originally Posted by Spartanic

Where is the graphic?

[Spartanic]

Comments on the Bugliosi Book (Fred Kuentz) Graphic:

1. The Graphic does not reference an actual Zapruder frame. The side note states "somewhere within a split second of frame z-210". This is basically saying the graphic is a "generic" reference to any frame from z-192 to z-228.
Magic Bullet Theorists have never been able to find a Zapruder frame where the Magic Bullet will work. Bugliosi tries to avoid this problem by simply not addressing it. The Z frame reference is very important regarding the trajectory of the bullet. As the Limo proceeds down Elm Street (away from the Snipers Nest) the Horizontal angle between the 6th floor window and the Limo is constantly changing. It is not possible for one trajectory to represent all the different trajectories during that frame sequence.
2. The location of the exit wound on JBC's front chest is roughly 4" away from the actual location of the exit wound. How many years did Bugliosi spend on this book? After all that time, he comes up with a bullet trajectory that misses Connally's chest exit wound.
3. The angle of the proposed path of the Magic Bullet is way off. By itself, this renders the graphic useless. With reference to the Limo, this graphic shows the bullet coming in at an 8 degree angle! This is not a true angle at any time during the sequence from z190 to z228. This is a shameless attempt at deception.
At z190, the angle is about 14 degrees. The angle decreases gradually to about 11.5 degrees at z228. We do not see an angle of 8 degrees until close to the headshot around z313.
4. JFK is "crammed" into the corner of the Limo. Note specifically how JFK is drawn as leaning on the top of the side of the vehicle with his armpit actually resting over the side of the Limo. There is no photo evidence to support JFK in this position during the specified z frame sequence. In the Zapruder frames, JFK is visible sitting in a relaxed, upright position with his elbow resting on the side of the Limo. There simply is no z frame or other photo during the shooting sequence that show his armpit on the side of the car. The motive here is obvious: Cram JFK as far to his right as possible to try and "steer" the bullet trajectory to the desired location.
To try and coverup this manipulation, the author gives JFK a larger-than-life upper body. At 6' and 170 pounds, JFK was a bit smaller than JBC, but you would not know that from this graphic. This graphic shows JFK with a wingspan that measures roughly 7 feet. That is the same wingspan as Idong Ibok on the basketball team.
5. This is not an accurate graphic of the Limo, but another "artistic rendering" of the Limo. .
Why do SBT authors refuse to use the readily available Blueprints of the Limo that have the exact measurements and proportions? The Limo provides a strategic reference system in the positioning of the the occupants and the trajectory of the Bullets. Manipulating the measurements and proportions of the Limo causes inaccuraces. A few inches off can have a big impact.
Example:
- The interior width of the limo is 3-4 inches short (about 56.5" when it should be 60"). These discrepancies are important because they illustrate a lack of attention to detail in a matter where the details are very important.

Summary: This graphic is intentionally deceptive. The horizontal angle of the bullet leads directly back to the Dal-Tex building, not the TSBD. JFK is stuffed into the corner of the back seat, several inches away from his actual position in the z frame photos. Even with these manipulations, the proposed bullet trajectory still fails to pass through Connallys known wounds. Bugliosi joins the list of authors (Specter, Lattimer, Posner, Meyers) who have intentionally manipulated evidence and lied to try and deceive their readers into accepting the Magic Bullet Theory.

[RQA]

Predictable response and predictably pathetic in so many ways.

First: you were on your soapbox confidently proclaiming that there were no overhead graphics outlining the SBT. I told you I had one, yet you continued on making that claim only to be embarrassed when I finally decided the time had come to own you once again.

Second: you continue to misunderstand the Z-film and so your attempts to concoct a conspiracy from it are completely misdirected. The Z-film is limited by its quality and by the technology of the day. It has been proven without any doubt that LHO was the sole killer WITHOUT even looking at the Z-film. Therefore any conclusion that the Z-film proves a conspiracy shows either a misinterpretation or a misrepresentation of it.

Third: you apparently do not understant the graphic I posted nor the context under which it was created. You make simpleton mistakes like assuming the limo was exactly perpendicular to the TSBD. You fail to use photogrammetry in making your "measurements" and therefore continue to make additional simple mistakes in interpreting the realative postions of the men and dimensions within the limo.

Fourth: you apparently want to draw a line from the TSBD to JFK and Connally when the correct thing to do is to align the wounds from Connallys back wound to JFKs throat wound to JFKs back wound and then extend that line out and see where it goes. When you do that properly that line takes you directly back to the 6th floor of the TSBD. The graphic I posted is part of a larger reconstruction of Dealey Plaza created to the exact dimensions supplied by the US Geoglogical Survey, the limo recreated from FordMoCo specs. This allows the limo to be placed within the exact context of Dealey Plaza with an accuracy of 1-2 meters.

Fifth: adding to the list of people whose integrity you impugn is Dr. Latimer. He is a world renown expert on the Lincoln and Kennedy assassination. Recently deceased. A bit off-topic but one of the funniest things I have seen about the JFK assassination is a video of Dr. Latimer squeezing 3 shots off from a M-C rifle in about 5 seconds thus destroying one of the sacred creeds of the conspiracy nut that the shots couldn't have been made in time. The funny part when Dr. Latimer finishes his shots he says: "and I am an 80 year old man!"

I think my experts easily trump the credibility of your experts, White and Groden.

Sixth: you lie about the location of Connally's wound. Either that or you are completely unable to understand the basic anatomical fact that the width of one's shoulders is not the same as the width of one's chest.

Seventh: you FAIL to create any alternative to the SBT that is remotely believeable. Be my guest to provide one for those reading along. Please be sure to explain the origin of the oblong entrance wound in Connallys back and where the shooter had to be to miss JFK in the process.

Good Luck

[Leonidas]

Originally Posted by RQA

Second: you continue to misunderstand the Z-film and so your attempts to concoct a conspiracy from it are completely misdirected. The Z-film is limited by its quality and by the technology of the day. It has been proven without any doubt that LHO was the sole killer WITHOUT even looking at the Z-film. Therefore any conclusion that the Z-film proves a conspiracy shows either a misinterpretation or a misrepresentation of it.

Yeah, don't believe what your eyes see!



Man you are